Marinelli vs. Schwartz
by Twon82 on Oct 7, 2009 5:54 PM EDT
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Directly following the Lions' second half collapse to the Chicago Bears a few days ago, all I heard about was how Rod Marinelli was a great coach that was in a bad situation in Detroit. It is probably worth noting that I live in central Illinois, which is obviously Bears country primarily. Normally, I would not have been bothered by silly comments by Bears fans.....but this was different. These people were basically saying that the Lions' previous culture of failing was the reason why Marinelli went 0-16 in 2008 with us. Roy Williams even said he would play for Marinelli again with no problems, basically agreeing with these sentiments.
I am not saying that the culture was helpful, because that is the very thing that Schwartz is battling (along with a much more helpful front office). But there are STARK differences between Marinelli and Schwartz that cannot be ignored. Schwartz would not have gone 0-16 last year in Detroit. I can say that definitively. We have a rookie QB in that same culture and he had managed to win already this season. Has this season been pretty? No, not really. But it has been a major improvement.
Bears fans are crazy if they think Marinelli would be a successful coach in this league with any other than an already well-established team.
What are your thoughts?
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culture problem?
the lions were 7-9 the season before…we were supose to be playoff contenders in 2008, not 0-16. the losing culture was starting to dissipate at the start of the 2008.
Well of course Roy Williams wouldnt have a problem with him
He stayed mostly on the defense side of the ball…
by Liontotheextreme on Oct 7, 2009 6:38 PM EDT reply actions
If Marinelli is a defensive whiz, why was our defence getting worse every year?
Especially our defensive line. I call bullshit on this Marinelli revisionism.
He seemed to only focus on his D-Line
I think he is more suited as a positional coach, or a Defensive Coordinator at best. Not a head coach.
2009 = The start of the Lions Golden Age (We hope).
+1
agree, i think a great positional coach…maybe even a good dc…but does not have the gusto or the inspiration that the schwartz carries w/ him
So let me get this right
Bears fans seem to think that their D-fence only got good this year under Marinera’s tootelage? Is that what they are saying? Cause I remember the bears having one of the best D’s in theleague untill the injury bug hit them last year and in every year since Uerlacher was a rookie. Or is Lance Briggs going to go to his first pro-bow this year? NO! Is their D-line better than last year, YES but they are healthy this year as opposed to last year. If Marrinelli is so great why don’t they let Lovie Smith go and promote Marinera sause to HC, if he’s so great. As I recall hearing Lovie is calling the plays this year on that side of the ball not Marinelli. Take alot of what you hear about Marinelli from Bears fans with a grain of salt. He is one of the top D-Line coach’s but that’s it. It’s alot easier to coach up 7 or 8 guys than 50+ guys. Just ask him! He will tell you how he’s going to go back and look at the tape’s and show these guys where they messed up, etc. etc. etc.!
I agree with Hyper
He may be a good position coach but he was ill-suited at best to be head coach of the Lions.
I spray paint my dog Honolulu Blue and Silver
Pic - me and the great Herman Moore
He just flat out sucks
I am sure Millen had him shackled a bit but his strategies sucked. We got nothing but worst when that clown was brought in. Chicago had a good D when he got there. Lets see what it looks like if he stays for a few years.
This is a stupid debate
He was clearly not a good coach considering they went 0-16. You can’t tell me that if you changed him with any coach in the league last year that we wouldn’t have won 1 game, at least
"Losing Culture"
is a stupid term made up by announcers who don’t bother to use actual explanations as to why a team is losing.
Oh, its not Marinellis fault, or Mooch’s fault, its just the losing culture! They need to get rid of the losing culture!
Anytime I hear the term “losing culture” in reference to the Lions, I replace it with “Matt Millen” and it not only makes more sense, but its more accurate.
Read my Lions analysis at: http://www.studyofsports.com/?cat=142
I'm not so sure there isn't something to that, sims....
I felt the same as you until we won against the Redskins. The outpouring of emotion and the “monkey off the back”-type relief was very telling. Think about your own job. Would you perform better or worse if the culture around you was about doing a great job or constantly getting beat down? I’ve worked on teams with less than stellar talent and I have to say that it can be distracting and even demoralizing. I just wouldn’t write this off so quickly.
That said… talent was far and away the biggest factor. But 0-16 doesn’t happen in this day and age without some sort of rampant loser mentality within the organization.
“Losing Culture” makes sense when its week 15 of a 0-14 season. When you’ve put up your best for the past fourteen weeks and have nothing to show from it, then, yes, you probably are going to be a little demoralized.
But people throw the term around so loosely. They use it from year to year. I don’t think a “losing culture” hangs around after a season’s end. New people, new coaches, new GMs = new culture. Just because we’ve had a bad couple years doesn’t mean the “momentum” of years past is going to affect this team.
Do players have a little less of a reason to play for the Lions because of last year’s 0-16? Of course. But does that mean the people here are stuck in a losing culture, whatever that really means? Um…no.
Read my Lions analysis at: http://www.studyofsports.com/?cat=142
Well, I don't wanna whack this dead horse...
too many times, because frankly I don’t feel that strongly about it, but the Lion’s recent holdovers feel that effect year in and year out… new regime or not. The other facet is the fanbase. Yeah, that would be us. The players get used to listening to the same riot act read to them every year and I can see how that would seep into an organization. Now, I agree that this label is used far too loosely… especially with the Lions. Because they have been down so long, it makes sense to slap it on them. Do I think it has an impact, sure. To the extent some fans rant about… probably not.
Yep, we're Lions fans, we were here to see it, we get it
You’re all right. We get it. Bears fans don’t, announcers don’t….we do.
Mushy had a great reply on this on a thread at the Windy City Gridiron. You can see he gets it, and the Bears fans don’t. Read his “Thanks Chicago” reply on this post:
http://www.windycitygridiron.com/2009/10/2/1066283/week-4-preview-lions-1-2-bears-2-1#22317655
I can’t stand the sight of Rod’s face anymore either.
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
Defensive Coordinator
Line or linebackers coach. Not as a head coach. i just don’t think he has what it takes. Schwartz, on the other hand, looks to be the real deal. I hope they can keep him around for a long time. Same with Linehan and Cunningham.
"A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five." ~Groucho Marx
I'd argue
that he wouldn’t even be a good defensive Coordinator.
by CLF on Oct 8, 2009 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Agreed...
otherwise I’m sure he would have been hired as one by this point in his career.
I’m not sure what an AHC does, but he’s obviously not gameplanning for anyone for a reason.
Agreed........based on a couple places where I've noticed it used.....
……it seems like the Assistant Head Coach is an empty title given to a longtime crony who doesn’t have the chops to be a coordinator. This can be for either of 2 reasons: to placate the crony and make him feel important, or to raise his perceived status so that the crony gets more respect from the players.
So when I see the AHC title, I now assume that the coach has risen to the max level of his competence (Peter Principle), and will never be promoted/hired to a higher position. Anybody who does so is making a big mistake. Oops.
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
He woudn’t play any of the young guys they drafted. Why draft them if your not going to play them? He is strictly a d-line coach, I hope he never gets another chance to be a head coach.
I hope he does...
Then no one would be able to use the Lions as an excuse for his failure.
by CLF on Oct 9, 2009 8:59 AM EDT up reply actions
His faliure is tied to matt millen. Millen is the only excuse we have tobe angry.
by lionsfaninohio on Oct 9, 2009 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Regardless of how well he knows football or the Dline
He did one of the worst jobs picking coaches that I have ever seen. There was not a coach he had that was not out of their depth in the position he had them in.
Marinelli promoted his friends and relatives to positions that were not qualified for and wondered why everything fell apart. That is why he will never be a good head coach.
Well said....
One of the chief problems in any company that is in trouble is cronyism. The social relationships between managers and their employees leads to a failure to hold people accountable for their poor performance.
Rather than take responsibility and/or hold people accountable, they start fabricating these amorphous external forces like “a losing culture” to place blame. A “losing culture” is nothing more than some dip-wad coach or GM refusing to call people out on their failure to execute.
by MusicCityDawg on Oct 9, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I wish
Marinelli would get a DC job so he could fail at that as well and be known for what he truly is. A good DL coach and nothing more. His vision was narrow and his shovel dull. I REALLY hate to write this, but I think Martz was the reason for the 6 and 2 start of 07…. no, I take that back. It was a combination of turnovers in our favor and a lot of luck. That’s more accurate.
bears fan here
i may not “get it” in regards to the many and varied reasons for your 2008 season. i remember seeing a few lions post game press conferences last year and thinking man i would hate this guy too if i was diehard lions.
however i can say it’s very obvious there is a marked improvement on the bears d line. best it has been since at least the 06 superbowl run. personnel has been largely the same the last few years but somehow the front four is making our crappy secondary look…well less crappy anyway. this guy may be a horrible HC but he is doing a fine job coaching up the d line.
with that being said, #1 reason for improvement on d side of the ball should be chalked up to removing babich (we hate this guy almost as much as you guys hate marinelli) from dc duties and lovie calling the shots. still giving up lots of yards but the turnovers, sacks and negative yardage plays are coming back around (finally). #2 reason would probably be d line resurgence, guided by you-know-who.
davis read a little closer. d line, not defense. i challenge you to find concrete examples last year that backs up your argument that health, or lack thereof, was the biggest factor in the crappiness of the 07-08 d line. i could take 2 minutes and paste box recaps and show the godawful bears d stats in the many games our largely healthy d line got zero sacks/pressures. many of the qb’s who lit us up were scrubs like delhomme and griese (60+ attempts no sacks goddamn that was a terrible game)….made da team look like the special olympics b squad last year and health was not a factor in this. this year even role players like anderson and idonije are shining, thanks in large part to better coaching.
have to agree w/hyperion about positional coach and glad he is doing what he does best in chicago.
No argument there.....
……Rod is a good D-Line Coach. He’s also a bad Head Coach and probably would be a bad Defensive Coordinator. It’s a Peter Principle thing. You’ve got him doing what he does best. Good luck, and see you again later in the season.
We hate Marinelli, and don’t want him back. It’s sort of like in 2004-2005, when Dick Jauron was our Defensive Coordinator. How did the Bears fans feel about seeing him? And how would they have felt if Jauron had gone 0-16 with the Bears, and gave the kind of answers after games that Marinelli gave? You’re right, you would probably hate this guy, too.
Good luck, see you in Detroit for the rematch.
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
indeed
lol at bringing up dicky j. yeah he isn’t missed either, his downfall was bringing in grade A garbage for coaches and sticking up for them when everyone was calling for blood…especially OC john shoop, that guy had bears fans reaching for pitchforks and torches.
i will say that even though lions will probably not have a great season this year there are some talented young’uns over there and schwartz seems like a competent coach…i’d be willing to bet next year and beyond will see a competitive lions team. good luck and hope stafford doesn’t get seriously hurt anytime soon as he looks like he can be the real deal with more help and experience.
by reefermadness3 on Oct 10, 2009 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
Marinelli is a smart guy when it comes to the D-line, and it looks to be working out for ya. Congrats.
2009 = The start of the Lions Golden Age (We hope).
by Hyperion Ecta on Oct 10, 2009 1:29 AM EDT up reply actions
no comparision
absolutely no comparision… Schwartz is the man.
GO LIONS 2009! the transformation begins.
Everyone is forgetting Millen
Millen made this team devoid of talent. Marinelli isn’t even worth talking about. He lacked the skills to be a head coach and couldn’t tread water. Now the Lions are building talent so there is a chance that Schwarz won’t suffer the same fate.
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