Howdy guys!
by davis0169 on Nov 27, 2009 1:37 AM EST
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PrintFirst off I gotta say that not being able to chat it up with you guys for the last month+ was killing me. I could read what you guys were saying but everytime I tryed to reply to something my computer would crash. . . . .it has been very frustrating for me. I've still got a hack locked on to me that is messing with my computer but at least I can reply to you guys somewhat before it closes down on me. With that said I gotta catch up with alot of you guys. OK my take on Staff infection is somewhat good but somewhat bad as well.He is making strides no doubt about it, but it is coming at one hell of a cost. I see him making alot of the same mistakes he was making on opening day. Today against the Packers was another instance of him not maturing as fast as we want him too.How many times can a rookie make the same mistake before one of our coaches shake the poop out of him???? Staff trusts his arm that's a great thing but he has to quit throwing the ball while not being planted and falling away from the line of scrimmage. He cost us the game in Seattle doing the same thing and against the rams he did it also. He has a cannon and he can make throws that NO QB in Detroit has ever made before, but even Favre learned to not throw the damn ball off balance and falling away from the line of scrimmage. We really need another rec that can be a game changer in the next year or 2, Johnson and Johnson just cant do it by themselves and Grew/Heller will help in time but Northcut has been a bust as far as I'm concerned. On the D-side of the ball we need 1 corner and in a most urgent way we need at least 1 stud on the end. Rev you keep on wanting a DT thats not the problem for our line it's the fact that our DT's are getting double teamed on almost every play and our ends can't get no pressure. If you look at every team that we have played no one is running up the gut on us that means to me that our DT's are getting the job done. We need another Porchette coming off the end, Averil was suppose to be that guy but he has been invisible when he even gets on the field,White can't stay healthy enough to be a factor so we gotta get at least 1 in the next offseason in my opinion. Now alot of you guys are already talking about the next draft and it seems to me that we are already setting our eyes on 3 players; LT, DT, and a certain safety.I could careless which one we get with the top pick cause we could use all 3 on D. Can we all agree that if we get as many starters that contribute this fast in the next draft that our front office is on the right track. If we take a O-tackle with our first pick does anyne think he will actually protect Staff's blind side right off the bat? I don't, look at what Cherilous did and almost every other tackle that comes out, they almost always need 1 full year to grow into their NFL bodies. If we take Berry (i know I'm jumping the gun) we would have one very scary backfield on the D-side of the ball but that's not our biggest problem is it. If we take Suh what does that get us? One more young DT that will get put into a rotation, so I don't think that's the pick either, It has to be another impact player reguardless of who it is, But for the record I'm hoping we take the top D-end who ever that may be after all the combines and hoopla is sorted out.I say keep what we have on the O-line for 1 more year put Rock Jansen where Sackus is let him be our alternate tackle and let's get this D-fence built first cause I don't see alot of people becoming free-agents this off-season and if they do they are all going to want to go play with 1 of 5 or 6 teams and none of those are our lions.Anyways sinc I'm ranting I just want to say I'm back and I missed all of you guys! Thank you all and let me hear what you all think . . . .like I have to ask.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Pride of Detroit or its writers. FanPosts are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable fans.
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for one thing,
it is not about our biggest need. It is about the talent level the players have. I think Okung, Suh, or Berry could all come in and start right away, and you could probably throw McCoy in there too. I don’t see any d-ends worth a probable top 5 pick. However, I wouldn’t be surprised if they took one in the 2nd or 3rd rounds.
I think the draft will look like this.
1. Okung
2. DT/DE
3. CB/S
I don’t think the draft is too deep with franchise LT’s like Okung, but there is depth at DT and S.
Agree with your draft order
2009 = The start of the Lions Golden Age (We hope).
Zack Follett: he will hurt your mind.
by Hyperion Ecta on Nov 29, 2009 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
It's good to see you back Davis
2009 = The start of the Lions Golden Age (We hope).
Zack Follett: he will hurt your mind.
There are 5 or 6 DEs that could be first round picks.....
However, none of them are worth a top 5 pick. Not only that, but I have to disagree that the problem on our D-line is the DEs. How many sacks has Jackson/Hill/Cohen/Fluellen had this year? How many has White/Avril/Hunter/McBride had? Answer: DTs not named Joe Cohen – 1, DEs not named Copeland Bryan – 5. 2 to 6 if you count Joe Cohen and Copeland Bryan.
I hate to tell you this my friend, but the DEs have been doing a particularly good job at getting up the field and not breaking containment. They are doing their jobs, even if their sack totals are not through the roof. The DEs have tripled the DTs sack outputs….and the main reason they have not gotten many more sacks and pressures is because there is no push in the middle of the defensive line. There are 2 DTs and 3 opposing offensive linemen…..that means that only 1 DT can be double teamed at a time (that has been Sammie Hill, surprisingly). Put another solid pass rushing DT next to Hill, and let the opposing teams struggle to stop them both. The way it is, the opposing QB never has to worry about the DEs because they can always step up in the pocket (since our DTs are not collapsing it in the middle of the line….EVER). No, the problem is not the DEs being unable to get any pressure on the QB, the problem is that our defensive tackles allow room for the QB to get away from our outside pass rush.
So you think that the fact that not many teams have been able to run on us up the middle has to do with the “DTs getting the job done”? I say that is only half of their job. I point this out to you…..who has made more tackles on defense? Our DTs or our linebackers? Grady Jackson has a whopping 22 tackles total, and Sammie Hill an astounding 16 total. Landen Cohen – 12, Andre Fluellen – 10, and Joe Cohen – 5. That totals 65 total tackles by all of our defensive tackles…..while Larry Foote has 78 total tackles all by himself (Levy has 55, Peterson has 51). So tell me, is it the DTs stopping the run most of the time, or is it our linebackers…..;o)?
Ummmm....
You are boasting that 5 sacks from our DE’s is doing good job? The fact, the the Lions use a linebacker now as a DE should give you some indication of how the coaching staff feels about the production from the DE’s. And that LB is now the sack leader. How many big runs have come through the middle. As opposed to the runningbacking bouncing to the outside? Your are right about the DE’s not breaking containment. Because most of the time they are getting pancaked. You though up some tackle numbers. The DE’s have a total of 74 tackles. That is not getting it done either.
Schwartz’s scheme is to have the DE’s line up wide. So they can use their speed to create pressure. The problem is they do not have the ability to disengage from the tackles. The oppossing tackles are just leading them up the field. And taking them out of the play.
I am not defending the DT’s at all. Because I have watch them get pushed around as well. But to say that the Lions DE’s are getting it done. That to me is a very questionable. Especially, when there are at least 30 NFL players that have the same or greater number of sacks than our DE’s have combine.
And I am not saying draft a DE with the first two picks. I can see using a 4th and beyond. The Lion’s O-line and the DT position must be a priority.
Oh by the way….good to see you back Davis!!!!
if the shoe fits...get another one just like it - George Carlin
They are at least doing a better job than the DT's
2009 = The start of the Lions Golden Age (We hope).
Zack Follett: he will hurt your mind.
by Hyperion Ecta on Nov 30, 2009 12:26 AM EST up reply actions
in what aspect?
Their number one job is to get pressure on the quarterback. 5 sacks is not getting pressure on the quarterback. Unless you are a DT named Kevin Williams. You dont not see high sacks numbers from DT’s. But in a 4-3, the DE’s must get to the QB. Look at the Eagles. They are one of the best team sack totals in the NFL. 17.5 sacks come from their DE position. While only 1.5 from the DT position. The rest come their LB’s. The fact is DT’s first task is to stop the run. I believe the Lion’s ranks 19th against the run. And I think something like 27th in sacks. Take away JP’s 3.5 sacks. He got while playing a DE. And the Lions drop to 30th in the NFL.
Nobody on that D-line is getting the job, really. The Lions need help on the inside as well as the outside. To say that they dont need to get another DE in the draft is beyond me.
if the shoe fits...get another one just like it - George Carlin
Wrong
There #1 job is to CONTAIN. And I didn’t “boast” anything…..I stated that they are doing a much better job than the DTs. Which they clearly are.
Defensive ends that is.....
and wrong again that our defensive ends could not or would not get the job done IF there was a push in the middle of the defensive line. You are correct in that a DT’s #1 priority is to stop the run…..too bad they have sucked balls at doing that job too. That is why I posted the tackle stats JC….to show that the DTs ARE NOT the ones stopping the run. It IS the linebackers who are stopping the run.
I played in a 4-3 defense in high school (where they teach you the fundamentals). It is the primary responsibility of the DTs to stop the FULLBACK. It is the secondary responsibility of the DTs to stop the RUN. It is the third priority of the DTs to create pressure by COLLAPSING the pocket so that the QB is FORCED to move LATERALLY and PREVENTED from stepping up in the POCKET and sitting there. IF the DTs were doing their JOBS, then they would be COLLAPSING the POCKET on passing plays, forcing the QB to move LATERALLY to avoid their pressure!! IF they were doing that, then our CURRENT defensive ends, who ARE getting up field in CONTAINMENT like they are supposed to be doing, would get to the QB more often because the QB would have NOWHERE else to go but right into their paths of containment!!
And by the way.....
Cliff Avril is a TWEENER. He is not a true linebacker, and he sucked at strong side linebacker at Purdue because he was too big and too slow to man the position. He DOMINATED when he switched to DE at Purdue, and was drafted as a DE, not a LB. He was meant to be an edge rusher for the Lions when he was drafted, and he even looked pretty good in that role as a rookie in the TAMPA 2! Now we have a completely different scheme, and he is not getting the job done. Why? Because he is doing what a defensive end is SUPPOSED to do in a 4-3 defense, which is CONTAIN on the outside! He is forced to bull rush because he is supposed to make a read on the QB so that he does not break containment on the outside during running plays. He has already been caught out of position in that role several times this year, as running backs have beaten him to the outside for big gains.
When he is doing his job properly, he does not possess the size or strength to disengage from the offensive tackles on a consistent basis. Which is why it is that much more PARAMOUNT that the DTs generate a pass rush in the middle of the defensive line!! If the DTs forced the QB left or right, then our DEs might have a chance to get a hand on him and bring him down! Our DEs are not getting pancaked on a regular basis…..I’d like to know what games you have been watching, because I have seen them all live, recorded them all and watched them again, and taken particular notice of how well the defensive ends are getting up field on a pretty consistent basis.
Yeah, Um, what he said...
2009 = The start of the Lions Golden Age (We hope).
Zack Follett: he will hurt your mind.
by Hyperion Ecta on Nov 30, 2009 5:10 PM EST up reply actions
Okay let me start with your position comparison...
There is no team in the NFL where a DT is the leading tackler. None. There are only two teams ( Buffalo, and Indy) where a position other than a linebacker is the teams leading tackler. In both cases it was a safety. There are only two teams in the league, in which the sack leader is a DT. Jacksonville and Atlanta. Jacksonville ranks 32rd in sacks. Atlanta 26th. What I am getting at is this. You can not compare stats of DE’s, DT’s and linebackers. It is comparing apples to oranges to bananas.
You say that the #1 job of the DE is to contain. Well, what are they containing? Lions are 19th in the league in rushing yards allowed. Last in the league against the pass. The entire defensive line is getting their asses handed to them.
The Lions can not generate a pass rush with the front four. So, they are forced to blitz. This leaves holes in the pass coverage. Gunther said himself that he wants to go quarterback hunting. 5 sacks from the position that is suppose to provide most of the pressure, is not getting it done.
My agrument with you is that you feel that the DE’s are doing a good job. And that the Lions dont need to spent a draft pick on that position. There is nothing in the teams rankings to support this. There is nothing in the individual stats that back that up. I can said with all certainly. The Lions draft a DE next April.
if the shoe fits...get another one just like it - George Carlin
They probably will draft a DE
But I suspect we will draft a DT first.
2009 = The start of the Lions Golden Age (We hope).
Zack Follett: he will hurt your mind.
by Hyperion Ecta on Nov 30, 2009 11:41 PM EST up reply actions
without a doubt...
I see a 4th or maybe a 3rd. I this is how right now I see the Lions drafting. LT, DT, CB, than maybe a DE. But at some point the Lions need to get somebody out on the edge that can get to the QB.
if the shoe fits...get another one just like it - George Carlin
DE will be one of the prospect areas I research heavily
Along with OT, OG, WR, DT, CB & S.
2009 = The start of the Lions Golden Age (We hope).
Zack Follett: he will hurt your mind.
by Hyperion Ecta on Dec 1, 2009 5:39 PM EST up reply actions
I bet not
And I want to point out to you JC that there was never an argument here until you stepped in and made one. I was pointing out to Davis that:
…the DEs have been doing a particularly good job at getting up the field and not breaking containment.
and
The way it is, the opposing QB never has to worry about the DEs because they can always step up in the pocket (since our DTs are not collapsing it in the middle of the line….EVER). No, the problem is not the DEs being unable to get any pressure on the QB, the problem is that our defensive tackles allow room for the QB to get away from our outside pass rush.
At no point did I say “that the Lions don’t need to spent a draft pick on that position”. In fact, what I DID say is this:
There are 5 or 6 DEs that could be first round picks…..However, none of them are worth a top 5 pick. Not only that, but I have to disagree that the problem on our D-line is the DEs
And what I am going to say now is this…..I personally do not feel that we absolutely NEED to draft a DE in this draft. I have already laid out my reasons why I have this opinion. However, IF the BPA happens to be a DE in a LATER round (round 5-7), then we may very well draft that player. I firmly believe that what CLF has been saying (and what Jim Schwartz and Mayhew said they would do and subsequently did) is what we will do….draft the BPA (with exception to QB, TE, and MAYBE LB if we re-sign Foote and Peterson).
Alright after reading you first comment...again...
I see what you are saying. Sorry. My bad.
if the shoe fits...get another one just like it - George Carlin
You know, we could all pick a position to specialize in for research.....
HE wants to investigate DE’s. I want to research big fat GIANT DT’s. Anybody want to specialize in CB’s or safeties?
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
That may not be a bad idea
I was planning to write a series of posts on the prospects we should look out for anyway….
2009 = The start of the Lions Golden Age (We hope).
Zack Follett: he will hurt your mind.
by Hyperion Ecta on Dec 4, 2009 5:44 PM EST up reply actions
I will do Safeties
i started to do alittle already
if the shoe fits...get another one just like it - George Carlin
Or maybe Kdawg can do safeties...
He has made some good points on Berry v. Mays. I could do CB’s
if the shoe fits...get another one just like it - George Carlin
You know, it's sorta funny in a way that Schwartz and Gunther are lining up the DE's wide.....
I already do that in Madden…..waaaay wide. And I’ve long used 2 enormous DT’s. I’ve also at times dropped a DE back as a 7th DB in dime before there was a quarter formation, and dropped a DE back as an 8th DB in quarter before Belichick ever did it (I called it the Sacagawea). It seems like I always come up with ideas in Madden, then a couple years later see the NFL do it.
Are people spying on me?
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
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