Lions Identity
by Brefstink on Dec 17, 2009 12:55 PM EST
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PrintWell we're almost at the end of another tough season for the Lions, and as sure as the sun rises, speculation over draft picks, trades, free agents, etc., are running rampant.
I think the number one task facing the Detroit Lions management in 2010 is to forge the future identity of the team. As a fan, I'd really like to be able to be proud of the Lions and what they represent - like many successful teams in the league. Say Steelers and you immediately picture that Steel Curtain defense. Say Saints - and you think Hi Octane offense. Dolphins - Wildcat. Bengals - Pound the rock. Pats - the system. I want that for the Lions! Right now it's Lions - Losers, unfortunately.
Let's take a look at where this team could be headed, and what it might look like in the future.
At first thought, last year's draft kind of set the mold of what we can expect the Lions to become. They drafted the QB of the future, a stud TE, and later a WR and RB. This flew in the face of what many fans wanted - that we draft all defense! While they did draft Levy and Delmas, who are sure to be great, it felt like a patchwork draft, all over the place. Sure it's the old Best Player Available routine, but does that help us build our team? Our team's identity? Not sure.
So our Offensive options seem to be maximize Stafford's ability / potential and develop a scary passing attack ala the Cardinals or Saints. We have Megatron - we would need to go get 2 or 3 more game breaking WR's or pass catching RB's. And shore up the O-line. Defense would be an afterthought for at least the next year or two...
The next option is to build a balanced offensive attack. Hard running, which sets up some nice play action passes. We have Megatron and a nice run blocking TE in Pettigrew. We'd need a really good slot WR, and of course, probably 2 really, really good RB's. With Smith's injury, that may be a tall order to acquire. And I dont know if the OL is up to the task.
The last option is to abandon passing for the most part, and run all the time. Pass only as a change up once in a while to keep the D honest, ala the Bengals. We'd need RB's again, and some OL help. But I think we could do this.
Of course, if we pick an all running attack, we'd better have a GREAT defense, as getting behind in the game is not going to lead to many wins. We are so far away from having a great defense. I think the only way to set up our team this way would be to trade Megatron for more defensive studs or draft picks and spend them all on D. Yet we'd still need RB's and OL. Free agency maybe...
There are pros and cons to trading Megatron: Pros- He's injury prone, we need the picks, he's gonna get paid when his contract is up. Cons - He's Megatron! A true game breaker when healthy and that's rare in the NFL.
I personally think that we should build a Run heavy team, around a great, league feared Defense. A real Black and Blue division mauler team. I would trade Megatron for multiple high draft picks and get as many defensive picks as possible. We have a good start on building a great defence with Levy, Delmas, etc. Keep it going!
Stafford is a bit redundant in such an offense, but he's our future. He has to cut down on INT's though.
Bottom line is it doesn't matter what I would do, it only matters what the front office does. This is the critical year for the Lions future...I hope they have the Identity of the Lions in mind when they make their plans this offseason. We need the stability and confidence that it would bring. Then and only then, we would have hope for the future.
What do you POD'ers think?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Pride of Detroit or its writers. FanPosts are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable fans.
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Love This Post....
……I may be in the minority but I may be in favor of trading Mega…..Im not syaing we should or shouldnt…..Im just picturing that we may be able to get a 1st 2nd and 4th this year and maybe even a 1st and 2nd in 2011 draft…..that being said if we do keep him we will not be drafting any wrs this draft i dont think…..Wed once again have to develop a guy like Williams or hope Bryant Johnson works out.
by BennieBladesFan on Dec 17, 2009 1:00 PM EST reply actions
If we could get two firsts two seconds a fourth
and a good player, I say do it.
Otherwise, no way. Without Calvin, teams would just blitz 8 men and we’d go 0-16 again :p
I agree
if it were possible to get that many draft picks then i would consider trading him but without Calvin then stafford has no big targets and he probably would end up throwing more INTs.
by LionsPistonsFan on Dec 17, 2009 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
Agree.....
…..its a tough call….I wouldnt be mad either way is what im saying I guess.
by BennieBladesFan on Dec 17, 2009 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
It really is a tough call
My heart says keep him. But with his history of injury, and where we are as a team right now…I honestly think the most rational thing is to trade him for picks while he is still valuable. Sell high is as true in football, as it is in business.
What if he blows out his knee like Smith did? We’re f*cked!!! That’s what. If we could get 3 or 4 prospects and 2 of those turn into really good players, then we just increased our talent level. That’s how the top teams have been doing it for years. The Pats always trade down for more picks, and then, when they see a player that fits their system / identity, they have the chips to make the deal happen.
Just livin' the dream...
The sky is falling!!!
You can ‘what if’ all day. With that theory, you might as well just draft highly and trade everyone away for as many players as you can, because eventually they’ll all get injured.
And what about Calvin’s ‘injury history’? What, that he was injured this year alot? The guy goes over the middle and top regularly to secure spectacular catches. That’s what happens. When our QB is solid enough to put the ball in a place where only he can get it, things will improve immensely.
He's been injured in each of his 3 years so far
And missed games as a result. I’d say that’s a history. I know it’s a tough game, and he’s a tough dude.
It’s the same critique Reggie Bush gets…when healthy, he’s as good as they come. And I bet the Saints let him go this year
Just livin' the dream...
Hahaha
I know I’m going overboard, but what you said sounds almost like Reggie Bush = Calvin Johnson.
Like I said, every player is typically injured at some point every year or two. Especially when you’re the only playmaker on a team and you’re getting hammered every game (see: Matthew Stafford).
Calvin Johnson is not a problem or a liability. Put the pieces around him and it will pay off. That’s all I’m saying. It’s not often you get a top player in the NFL without an ego or a huge mouth to boot.
That is exactly the point of my post
How do you put the pieces around him offensively, while at the same time put the defensive pieces together? It’s crazy the amount of talent we need .
Just livin' the dream...
That's why we draft players every year
It would not be true to say that
“We can’t build a team without trading away our best player”.
We will draft 8 players (more or less, depending on trades) next year.
We will draft another 7 players the year after.
We will draft another 7 players in 2012.
We will bring in free agents to help out every year.
As long as we have a competent front office, we can build a team the right way, by drafting talented football players, keeping the good ones, and replacing the bad ones.
You do not need to trade away your best player to build a good football team.
+1000
2009 = The start of the Lions Golden Age (We hope).
Zack Follett: he will hurt your mind.
by Hyperion Ecta on Dec 18, 2009 1:33 AM EST up reply actions
one difference...
The Saints have other Good RBs. We Don’t Have any other Talent at WR.
Please can we not re-hash this again. You’re not gonna help your position comparing the Lions to the Talent Loaded Saints. Our situations are so different that comparison is almost comical.
Also....
…..Schwartz wants to run the ball……I just think that a guy like mega is being wated here…..I think if we draft any offensive weapon this year it will be at RB over WR…..I like Kevin Smith but rbs usually only last 5 yeras at the top of there game and hes coming off a major injury…..So im all for having a smash mouth defensive identity with great dlineman and stud Lbs……Trade Mega and build the lines and the whole defense.
by BennieBladesFan on Dec 17, 2009 1:04 PM EST reply actions
Schwartz says he wants to run the ball...
…but that is what is so confusing to me, because the players drafted last year dont seem to fit that mold.
I hope the front office gives him what he wants this year.
Just livin' the dream...
I couldn't disagree more about trading CJ
You draft a QB and pay him millions upon millions. He’s a good QB. You don’t pay him millions upon millions to hand the ball off. He’s paid to throw it. If you take away the only guy on the team that can catch the ball, you’re wasting Stafford’s talent and the money and draft pick you spent on him. If you trade CJ for picks and then beef up the line, that doesn’t help anyone else on the team catch the ball. If we were just going to hand the ball off, we could use Stanton and probably run the option and pay him the league minimum. But that’s not the direction we took. Now that we have the QB, we need to put the pieces around him. It would be different if we were like the Cards and had a Boldin and Breaston waiting in the wings, but we don’t. We have a BJ and a Shortcutt waiting in the wings.
Not again...
Yes, trading Megatron should get us a few picks, but really how much do you think we can get for him? He is after all a wide receiver. Think about it this way, Jay Cutler is a young, Pro Bowl quarterback, and what did the Bears give for him: A couple of mid-round first picks, a second round pick and a back-up QB. I don’t think we can get more than that for Megatron.
Realistically, two mid first rounders, a second rounder is not enough to turn around our defense. Its true, those three picks would go a long way in helping build a defense, but we would also be taking a huge step backward on the offensive side of the ball. With that said, I would like this strategy if either we could replace CJ (see below) or we had a solid offensive line, and we would pound the rock, that way we would really have a old school defense first team.
Here is a trade scenario that I would like: Trade CJ to whoever is willing to give up two first rounders, a second rounder, and a third rounder. Then, trade our second round pick + the third rounder from the trade to the Broncos for Brandon Marshall. If we could pull something like this, I would be very happy, but its highly unlikely, and I’m not too sure that a high second rounder + third rounder is enough for Marshall
The beginning of the end of the misery
Agreed
No trade of Megatron please!!!
I spray paint my dog Honolulu Blue and Silver
Pic - me vs. Bears fans
So what your saying is.....
……hes just a wr……so if thatst he case why not trade him and sell high if thats all he is?
by BennieBladesFan on Dec 17, 2009 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
if saying hes a wideout
so his value isn’t as high as positions like QB, RB or even DE, so we wouldn’t gain enough by trading him
The beginning of the end of the misery
So if we got 3 1sts.....
……and 3 3rds thats not enough?….Wow…..Id take that for any wide.
by BennieBladesFan on Dec 17, 2009 5:06 PM EST up reply actions
thats a different case...
most ppl are proposing 2 first rounders, and i doubt we can even get that for calvin
The beginning of the end of the misery
I am not big on worrying about a franchise identity.
Just worry about building a winning team. Right now we have a few parts that will help us get there. On offence, Staff, Calvin, and Pettigrew are solid building blocks for the rest of that unit. On defence, Delmas and Levy are the long term foundation with Peterson and Foote helpful in the short term. As most of us have said, the cupboard is bare pretty well everywhere else.
Both lines need to be rebuilt. We have a few pieces of the O line that are okay in the short term, but nothing established in the long term. Begin the process of using at least one of our first three picks over the next three years to build this unit up. Ditto for the D line. Use the other picks for secondary and skill player help with the odd flyer on a late round lineman who is a developmental project.
Use free agency for depth only.
Forget about trading Calvin. We would not get back what he is worth to us. Give Staff and Calvin a chance to work together.
I respectfully disagree
Identity is everything. Whether myth or fact, how you are perceived is so important. It would sell tickets, intimidate opponents, and build our teams confidence.
We scratched the surface of that a few times this year when I heard TV announcers saying the Lions D is vastly improved and needs to be respected, albeit there is still along way to go.
Can you imagine if we build upon that and make it awesomely tough?! I think it would be great. I’d go to more games just to see players getting their heads knocked off by our D…
Just livin' the dream...
Sorry Bref, the Lions are perceived as Losers. It will take many years of winning to wipe that out.
Wearing black unis and drafting a bunch of big uglies will not change that. This organization has the long term reputation of being inept, incompetent, and inconsistent.
To change that, they need to hire some intelligent people and let them do their job for an extended period of time. I think Mayhew and Schwartz have the skills and smarts to lead this organization to a higher level. Mr. Ford needs to let them do it. Until they are allowed to build a team that wins consistently our identity will always be “the losers who are always rebuilding”.
I definitely agree with you on that point
Ford needs to leave them in place, and spend some money to get us some good players.
Although he left Millen in place….hmmm.
Just livin' the dream...
Millen though changed coaches every other year.
And each coach changed the operating philosophy too. No continuity.
With the choice and payment of Stafford...
we have established our identity. If we pay him to hand the ball off we wasted a ton of money and are wasting his talent. We need to protect him now. And supply him with offensive pieces. Kind of the Colts model. The offense will have to be built around Stafford. To me that also means keeping CJ. Kind of like who Wayne and Harrison were to Manning. He needs someone on the other end of those passes. It’s obvious that no one else on the team can catch the ball consistently (which also makes me wonder if we should have kept R. Curry).
I would prefer a smothering defense like Baltimore or Pittsburgh, but those aren’t the pieces we have. We could half ass both sides of the ball, but that seems like a waste too. At this point, keep building around Stafford (including keeping CJ) and hope to fill the defensive gaps in the later rounds and FA.
Please not again...No more trade calvin talk
Ya had to get the “Trade Calvin” debate back on the first page. As y’all know, this was debated as nauseaum for 24 hours less than 2 days ago. Can we just appreciate everyone’s perspective and give it a rest? Please?
Well written article; even if I don’t agree with Calvin being placed in the discussion again.
Our identity will be shaped based on the players that are put in place. When Schwartz was hired, he said the defensive scheme would be determined by the players he has. When asked about the defense, he said he could go with a 3-4 or 4-3 depending on the players AND that he wasn’t tied to either one.
I think we will continue to see a BPA approach until we get more talent in place, and that will foster our identity.
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
Well it was some of that trade Calvin talk
that kinda got me thinking why would some fans be thinking about it. I think it’s because they realize he may not fit in with our plans here…
I think it’s worth talking about, but in a broader, long term way. He’s just a small part of what we need to do yet.
Just livin' the dream...
Fan's thought about it because Drew Sharp was trying to create buzz
I doubt that Sharp even believes what he reads or writes. His job is to create readers and listeners which in turn SELL’S MORE ADVERTISING at HIGHER PRICES. He doesn’t care if he’s right or wrong; it is about self-preservation for him.
That’s his job, and if he doesn’t raise controversy or have anything interesting/debateable to say, then fewer will buy papers and listen to his show. If we say black, he will say white…cuz pissed of people enter the debate and buy more papers and listen to his show.
An example for perspective: When Howard Stern was starting out, the polls showed that more than half of the people found him to be a pig, and hated him. So why did he get a big contract? Because the other poll showed that those that love him would listen to hear what he was going to say next, and those that HATED him LISTENED to hear what he was going to say next.
Sharp has no vested interest in the Lions, and could care less if his comments pissed Calvin off enough to demand a trade. He could care less if they did trade him and the Lions draft picks bombed and CJ went on the break all the major receiving records. He is a whore that is only interested in doing what he can to get his ratings up.
Sharp aside, why would we trade Calvin for draft picks? Jimminy Christmas…did you know that more than half of the NFLPA’s players only get ONE contract? What that tells us is that half of the draft picks are DON’T make it in the NFL.
As fans, we BEG for more draft picks before the draft, and then we are pissed when half of them don’t work out. Where do you think Derrick Williams is going to wind up next year? How about Aaron Brown (Schwartz hates him)? Gronkowski was cut today, and Lydon Murtha is on the Dolphins.
I am sure glad we didn’t follow Sharp’s advice to trade Calvin for THOSE draft picks.
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
Ive been thinking about it Since....
…..We drafted him…..So dont say Sharp made me think it…..You dont build a team drafting wrs!!!!….I think real football people know that……We need to trade him and rebuild with the 7 8 picks we can get for him!!!!……Dont say I follow what Sharp says and dont say people were only thinking about it becasue of his articles.
by BennieBladesFan on Dec 17, 2009 5:08 PM EST up reply actions
I started thinking about it early this year.
Drew Sharp had nothing to do with it, I didn’t even read his article.
I stand corrected.
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
How good is a team with a terrible group of WR's?
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
ask the bears!
lol
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
Or Baltimore every year.....
…..Super bowl title and in the playoffs
by BennieBladesFan on Dec 18, 2009 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
Baltimore had...
Sterling Sharp (future HOF), Qadry Ismail, Ben Coates receiving….Priest Holmes, Jamal Lewis, and Sam Gash running.
…and the best defense since the 85 Bears. Are you really gonna say they had no talent in the skilled positions?
Show me a super bowl winner in the last 20 years that didn’t have a bonafide #1 wideout…
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
You could easily argue that the Steeler's
dont have a legit #1 WR. Hines isn’t a gamebreaker, he is however a very good possession WR. Holmes isnt really a dominate #1, he benefits from their QB more than his individual talent.
And they won the SB just last year. Who was the bonafide #1 on all 3 NE SB’s? Troy Brown? But I do agree with you that a team needs talent a the WR position to be successful.
Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain. Lily Tomlin
hmmm....got me thinking
I love hines ward, but as you said, not a game breaker. I think it’s the combo between he and Holmes that make them great.
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
I'd still consider Hines and Holmes very strong players
They aren’t guys you pick up on the side of the road, they are top-notch players.
2009 = The start of the Lions Golden Age (We hope).
Zack Follett: he will hurt your mind.
by Hyperion Ecta on Dec 18, 2009 6:15 PM EST up reply actions
+1
I’d trade Dennis Northcutt or Bryant Johnson for either of them in a heartbeat.
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
but their not
Clear #1’s
Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain. Lily Tomlin
by Leapin Lion on Dec 19, 2009 2:05 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Keep him
He is as valuable as Stafford… unless there’s one hell of an offer… the Williams deal was a no brainer… it would have to be 3 times better than that…
Stafford and CJ need to stay connected at all costs. It’s only gonna get better especially if the Lions work on the line AND improve the WR corps
GO LIONS in 2010! the transformation starts now.. they have much to do.
what really gets me under my skin is this
how does this move make us better tomorrow? the chance that lightning strikes twice at the draft? really? when we have a top five wr now. when we drafted a qb with the arm to get it to him?
last week it was get rid of or move on from ksmoothe…..then he got injured and those same people cried cuz he was just coming into his own.
our identity moving forward needs to simply be continuity. keep those that are laying the groundwork which is the future of this team. whether for depth or simply to teach the “lion” way much the same as the patriot way. that is the biggest issue in new england now…no one left to teach the patriot way other than brady. we need guys who were here through the rebuild, who saw the lows & pulled the team up from the depths. just bringing in a bunch of picks will put rookies out there…lots of them…and what did we see this year? rookie mistakes & rookie injuries…rookies are more prone to injury than any other player…why? because their season is actually more like 18mo’s.
nuff said. we need to build on what we have…other wise we continue to be “proudly rebuilding since 1957”. i’d rather be building than continually tearing down & rebuilding.
+100
Thats apparently going to be the new Stafford v. Curry argument for the offseason.
You cannot continue to turn this roster over, this team can’t afford to get rid of the few playmakers it has.
BE PATIENT. CONTINUITY AND CHEMISTRY.
I would argue we cannot afford NOT to trade him
At 0-16, then 2-14, we can afford anything.
Just livin' the dream...
Aikman & Irvin - Manning and Harrison
When Aikman came in, Irvin was in his second year. The team finished 1-15. With your reasoning, they should have traded Irvin that offseason for draft picks. Yeah, that would have worked out really well.
When Manning went 3-13 his first year, Harrison was a 2 year veteran. Again, with your logic, they should have traded Harrison for Picks. Would that have been a bad idea? They had nothing else to trade either.
We have some explosive playmakers in place, now we just need to build the core from the inside out as you have said.
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
No one is going to trade us anything for Simms
With Megatron it’s different.
Just livin' the dream...
point is, this team needs playmakers & depth
not 0 experience sprinkled with hey, he looks good. odds of drafting that calibre again are 1/100 if that…let alone repeatin a successful offseason on top of that.
Agreed
So how would you get more playmakers and depth? We dont have multiple picks like last year.
Just livin' the dream...
sigh
how come people dont understand the idea that you dont trade away proven, young players for draft picks when your team sux ass. teams like the pats can afford to give away guys like seymour for those high picks because they have guys behind him that can take over. plus, they have other playmakers on the defensive side of the ball, so the loss isn’t that big.
the lions? well, we have maybe three or four real playmakers on our team (CJ, Staff, Delmas, and maybe Foote). You’re proposing that we trade away one of those players and hope that the draft picks you bring in work out. which is really risky.
The beginning of the end of the misery
How? You draft good players
We have multiple picks. 1 each in Rounds 1,2,3,4,5,6,7. No multiple 1st-Rounders, you say? A recent SI “Redraft” lists 4 of the Lions 2009 picks as 1st-Rounders in the “redraft”. We look to have gotten 5 starters from the 2009 draft. Only Pettigrew was from an extra 1st-Round pick.
Patience. Patience. PATIENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!
You BUILD a team by ADDING to the good players you already have, not by trading AWAY your GREAT players for the draft equivalent of a handful of scratchoff lottery tickets.
Hey, why don’t we trade Stafford for some mid-round picks and a 6-pack?
(sarcasm alert)
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
were you just agreeing with me or responding to the original post
cause we seem to be making the same point
The beginning of the end of the misery
by Latif Masud on Dec 18, 2009 11:14 AM EST up reply actions
Agreeing with you, responding to Brefstink just above you
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
You dont win with top 5 wrs.....
……You win with Qb and Oline and Dline
by BennieBladesFan on Dec 17, 2009 5:08 PM EST up reply actions
You don't even need a good QB sometimes.
Like Trent Dilfer, Jeff Hostetler, Phil Simms (never great – but solid). You can win with a guy who’ll hand the ball off to a decent RB if you have a stifling defense too, but with Stafford, we’re not built that way.
You don't win with nothing but crappy WR's and OL picks who flop
The QB still gets sacked and now doesn’t even have anybody to throw to.
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
Exactly....
…….thats why they should have never even taken Mega.
by BennieBladesFan on Dec 18, 2009 9:24 AM EST up reply actions
So we can still get sacked and have NO WR's to throw to?
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
Hey I'm cool if we keep him
I’m just saying it’s a valid point to consider trading him. But if we do keep him, then we better get Stafford some blocking, and get some WR’s to help share the load.
It’s a daunting task, because now those offensive picks are taking up picks that should be making the defense stronger.
Calvin is a top 5 player, and thus is the only bargaining chip we have to trade.
But here’s the reality. We CONTINUALLY suck, and I’m sick of it. Calvin has done nothing to change that regardless of his awesome skills. This is not a personal thing about him. It’s for the good of the team.
Another way of looking at it is = Will he be around in 5 years to help us make a playoff run after we’ve put all the pieces in place? There is reasonable doubt that he will hold up that long.
Just livin' the dream...
he offers promise & that draws in quality fa players
it is also why grew was such a good pick…a te that can make plays draws the coverage of a safety, thus all but eliminating over the top help. all this offense needs is blocking & a number two wr. i believe a signing of a logan mankins would be a possibility. we are only one or two pieces away from a productive oline. if grew is healthy next year & we get some blocking up front this offense is threatening. if you trade cj for picks and draft all defense…sure we might be able to shut teams down (best case scenario) but if we can’t score on offense its no use. and without a deep threat, few teams can overcome eight in the box reading run 2/3 plays.
give them some time
we gotta be patient. i honestly think we are a piece or two (a Left tackle and a guard) away from being a really, really good offense. i bet you next year the lions will have a top 15 offense
The beginning of the end of the misery
I expect...
The same type of draft as last year. The Front office, now lead by Shack Harris, will NOT focus on position, but talent. Where ever the chips fall, the Lions will choose the most talented player available whether that’s offense or defense.
That means this draft could go either offense or defense…. it all depends on how the players fall.
The mentality that we need an OG in the 3rd is now gone. Teams that pick with position first in mind year after year are at the bottom of the league.
-CLF
I think an "identity" is a by-product of winning. It should not be a goal in itself.
Draft the best players available.
And here is why we DO NOT TRADE CALVIN JOHNSON:
When a player turns out to be good, you keep him because he benefits the team and makes the team better. If you operate with the mindset
“hey look, we finally we have a good player, what can we get rid of him for?”, you’re going to be constantly reshuffling your roster but never improving your future.
Here is when it makes sense to trade a player. Some combination of:
1. The player no longer fits the scheme or the team. Or, you can trade him for a player who better fits the scheme. When we were transitioning away from the T2, it made sense to trade a smaller, aggressive undertackle like Cory Redding for a big, versatile linebacker like Julian Peterson.
2. You have too many good players at his position, and you would get more value for the team to trade him than benching him.
(#1 and #2, I think, are reasonable reasons why Ernie Sims could be a trade option. He is an ideal Tampa 2 WLB, but he may not be a perfect fit for our new defense, and with DeAndre Levy showing that he can be a starting OLB, Sims may be crowded out of the starting LB group, if we resign Peterson. I’m fine with keeping Sims though. He’s still a talented young LB).
3. Character problems. He’s lazy, or he’s running his mouth, or he’s disgruntled, or he can’t work with the coach or teammates, or something.
4. You get some bizarrely good offer for him. Occurrence of this scenario is outside of any team’s control, so speculating about it is pointless. Yes, I would be in favor of trading Culpepper for a 2nd-, 4th-, and 7th-round pick to help rebuild the defense, but I’m not going to start putting up fanposts saying “Trade Culpepper” because the right offer just won’t happen.
(Roy Williams was a combination of #3 and #4, so that was a good trade. You could say the same of Jay Cutler).
5. You’re going to lose him or get rid of him soon anyway, so you may as well try to get something for him. (e.g. Kitna for Anthony Henry).
Calvin Johnson does not meet any reasonable criteria to justify shopping him around. He fits the team, he does everything well, he makes the guys around him on offense better by commanding double-teams, he makes our $70 million QB better by giving him a big fast target, he sets a good example, he works hard, the fans love him and rightly so, he’s under contract for at least another 3 years, hopefully we re-sign him after that. He makes our running game better. He makes our passing game better.
Look, we get at least seven draft picks every year (eight this year!). If we get a solid Guard in the 2nd or 3rd round, and a serviceable slot- or #2-WR in the 3rd, 4th, or 5th round, we will be better on offense. Stafford and Grew will have a whole year under their belts (hopefully all healed up, too). We will be in a position to maximize Calvin Johnson’s skills next year immediately and spend five or six of our eight draft picks fixing the defense.
On the other hand, if we traded our best player for draft picks, our offense suddenly slows down and becomes less threatening, everybody is worse off, and guess what? Instead of having a superstar WR ready to shine, we have two or three additional rookies who may or may not pan out. The QB we just gave the $70 million contract to is now fortunate to have Bryant Johnson as his #1 receiver. We’ve just stretched out our rebuilding process even further. Bad trade.
If somebody comes along and offers us a shitload of draft picks, fine, everybody has a price. And if somebody on the street randomly hands me a thousand dollars, great, I’ll take it. But these are not things you can live your life expecting to happen or make happen, and realistically, they probably won’t.
No, we should not be shopping around talented young players who make their teammates better.
by n4ry4 on Dec 17, 2009 2:56 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
+1
Excellent POST!
All except for the part about trading Culpepper. I would trade him for a diet coke and tater tots. Actually, I would take just a diet coke, but try to hold out for the tater tots.
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
Oh, I know. I'd trade Culpepper for a low/moderately low-intensity electric shock to my nipples
But my point was to illustrate a bizarre offer that’s an obvious “yes” for us, and at the same time extremely unlikely to happen, like the kinds of draft picks that some members of the “trade Calvin” crowd seems to be expecting we would get.
I don't like draft picks in exchange for marquee players
I posted above that over 50% of the NFL players only get one contract according to the NFLPA. Obviously this tells us that over half of the draft picks don’t make it in the NFL.
So why trade proven talent for a 50% or less shot of even having someone on the roster in 5 years, let alone them being a star?
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
you cant asume that it is picks that are 50%
there is undrafted FA players romo was one warner was one
but all so even if it is 50% of drfat picks tank most of them would be 5-7 not as many 1-4
Just Remember matt... what would Daunte do??
The number was much higer than 50%
I heard DeMaurice Smith say that something like 60 or 65% only get one contract and I think he was only talking about drafted players. I will see if I can find out specifics.
You are right about rounds 5-7 providing more of the busts though.
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
I like what denver did with Cutler....
…….what didnt you like about that trade for denver?
by BennieBladesFan on Dec 17, 2009 5:20 PM EST up reply actions
What I didn't like about the Cutler trade for Denver?
- They lost a QB with alot more upside than Orton
- They used the Bears 1st round pick for Robert Ayers – He hasn’t started a game yet, and was a healthy scratch a couple of weeks ago. Last I heard he was only playing on passing downs when he is active.
- They traded the 3rd that they got from Chicago and their other 3rd to the Steelers for the last pick in the second round…basically moved up 12 spots for—-drum roll please——Richard Quinn, TE from NC. He’s had NO catches this year, and is only playing on special teams. OH, and he was arrested in September on doemstic violence and harassment charges.
- They only have one more 1st rounder in 2010 to get any value for Cutler (other than Orton), so they still have a chance to get something in return
So there’s 2 outs in the bottom of the 9th, 3-2 count, and they get ONE MORE SWING to get anything for Cutler. That’s what I don’t like about trading marquee players for draft picks, and it’s why, other than getting such an obscene amount pf picks that you can’t possibly screw it up,I wouldn’t trade CJ for draft picks.
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
Another good set of points
2009 = The start of the Lions Golden Age (We hope).
Zack Follett: he will hurt your mind.
by Hyperion Ecta on Dec 18, 2009 1:45 AM EST up reply actions
excellent post by nyry4, too
I think an “identity” is a by-product of winning. It should not be a goal in itself.
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
Wow your tought on guys....
…..that havent even played a full season in the nfl….geez….did you expect the to put up pro bowl numbers right away man…Wow…..Your tough.
by BennieBladesFan on Dec 18, 2009 9:25 AM EST up reply actions
No, but I expect my 1st rounders to start
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
although i agree that i didnt like the trade
i thought denver got a decent deal for cutler. he is a bit overrated to begin with. For those of you who undervalue the need to have an elite receiver, jsut look at the difference between cutler in denver vs cutler in chicago.
Problem is they drafted very poorly, which basically turned the trade in chicago’s favor
The beginning of the end of the misery
by Latif Masud on Dec 18, 2009 11:18 AM EST up reply actions
Mcnair didint start his 1st year.....
……Im glad that you were at least not in favor of Culpepper starting this year…..Stafford was a 1st and he def should have een starting…..trhere wernt many of us saying that.
by BennieBladesFan on Dec 18, 2009 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
:-) Fat Batstard
“Unfortunately, my neck does look like a vagina.”
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
Excellent points
But point #1 is my real question about this team.
Point #3 is in the back of my mind with him. How much losing can he take?
Point #4 is a very real possibility. I’m not gonna give him away. I want a blockbuster.
Point #5 somewhat possible, do we lose him to injury?
Great post, makes for good discussion. Better than “You’re crazy!” Thanks
Just livin' the dream...
Brilliant posts
Possibly all my thoughts on the subject….and more.
2009 = The start of the Lions Golden Age (We hope).
Zack Follett: he will hurt your mind.
by Hyperion Ecta on Dec 18, 2009 1:40 AM EST up reply actions
+1
Excellent POST!
All except for the part about trading Culpepper. I would trade him for a diet coke and tater tots. Actually, I would take just a diet coke, but try to hold out for the tater tots.
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
Hurray...Common sense prevails!
Here’s what Schwartz said in London’s link:
A hot topic of conversation in Detroit is whether the Lions should trade WR Calvin Johnson, to which coach Jim Schwartz replied, “We’re in the process of trying to acquire good players, not let good players go.”
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
by footstock on Dec 17, 2009 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
+81 to you too!
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
Damn, Schwartz can say in one sentence what most of us take three paragraphs to write!
What he said!
Schwartz says the right stuff
2009 = The start of the Lions Golden Age (We hope).
Zack Follett: he will hurt your mind.
by Hyperion Ecta on Dec 18, 2009 1:46 AM EST up reply actions
Draft Success
I read an interesting article which evaluated the success rate of TOP 10 draft picks over the last 10 years. So that is 100 picks in total.
In a nutshell, it said that 30% of top 10 draft picks rate as good to great and pro bowls are not the qualifier.
It went on to say that 24% qualify as a BUST and that was conservative in grading the players. This is why you don’t trade Calvin for draft picks.
He lists the players names in the article, so you can check it out for yourself.
http://blogs.chron.com/fantasyfootball/2009/03/post_85.html
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
Who says we have to trade f or top 10 picks?
….We can trade mega for picks in the teens and 20s……Id rather have those anyway….thats where the good players are…..Also too expensive pickin up top……So trade calvin for mid to late 1st rounders…..Love it.
by BennieBladesFan on Dec 17, 2009 5:12 PM EST up reply actions
I agree too much cap space to pick at the top
but do you really think that the success rate IMPROVES as you get lower in the first round? It likely stays around the same, but cheaper.
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
PS >>
Please scroll up and see my reply about what I didn’t like about what Denver got from Cutler so far with their wonderful picks in exchange for their former pro bowl qb.
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
Players in the teens and twenties never bust?
It’s not a bargain if they still bust and are out of the league. And it’s certainly not building. I’d rather pay Calvin to make plays than pay the cap hit on 5 busts.
I’m with Fat Bastard on this one. Please send me a Diet Coke, I’m stuck in his belly.
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
Just want to say.....
……You dont win with top 5 wrs……You win with QB Oline and Dline…..thats it…..OIine protects qbs and lets any wr get open and opens holes for rbs……Dline with pressure on qb and makes average Cbs great……2 hof corners would not be good without a great dline….Even hof corners can cover for 8 secs…..You needa rush…..So trade MEGA to get 7 or 8 picks draft oline and dline and then draft skill needsa fter that…..You dont need to have a top 5 wr to win in the NFL…..You need a qb and lines plain and simple.
by BennieBladesFan on Dec 17, 2009 5:11 PM EST reply actions
That all makes really good sense...
This is hypothetical babble, but could we get something like Kiwanuka, Umenyiora, and Chris Snee in exchange for Calvin?
I don’t want draft picks in exchange for a proven star, and I wouldn’t trade him for any one of them individually.
Then we can pick Plax up at the prison gates next year and bring him straight to FF.
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
So you telling me that.....
…….you win with line play and a QB?……thats not hypothrtical babble man……Thats how you win at any level…..Come on man.
by BennieBladesFan on Dec 17, 2009 5:19 PM EST up reply actions
i was saying my comments were babble...not yours
I meant that my prospective trade scehario was babble. I was saying you made a really good point.
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
Who do these hypothetical QB's throw the ball to?
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
forgetting draft picks...
would you trade Calvin for Umenyiora straight up?
Or for Kiwanuka staright up?
I would not. Would I trade him for both of them? Maybe.
Would I trade him for Umenyiora, Kiwanuka, and Snee? Yes.
That’s building from the inside out as you suggested…but with proven players instead of “combine measureables and hope”.
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
still wouldn't do it
Snee is actually an FA at the end of the season, but lets assume he’s not.
Kiwanuka is vastly overrated, umenyiora is very good, but he’s not worth calvin
The beginning of the end of the misery
by Latif Masud on Dec 18, 2009 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
Remember what Dallas
Did with Walker……thats how they built that team….Im not saying that we should or shouldnt trade him…..But if we could get that and build the team….theyd be dumb not to.
by BennieBladesFan on Dec 17, 2009 5:22 PM EST reply actions
I remember what Dallas did
They traded a past his prime RB to a sucker. I think your analogy would be more apt if they would have traded Walker after his third season in the NFL. Doubt that trade ever would have happened. I think it would be like SD trading Tomlinson now for someones entire draft.
make that 3rd season in the pros
I always forget that he was in the USFL for a couple of years before the NFL.
this is all most as bad as the eagle fans saying thay can get a top 3 pick for vick
Just Remember matt... what would Daunte do??
My issue with trading CJ is this.
If we trade him we sacrifice a top 5 wide out, and Mathew Staffords career. What is the point of more potential draft picks who might not pan out? We have a good thing. Megatron is young, and has time left on his deal. Let’s not waste 2 1st round picks who have shown potential for possibilities of busts as well as good players.
by Waitingfortheroar on Dec 17, 2009 7:45 PM EST reply actions
Im not saying your wrong.....
…..but did you like what Denver did with Cutler?……One of the top young Qbs in the league.
by BennieBladesFan on Dec 17, 2009 8:29 PM EST up reply actions
Well right...
….what im sauing is did you likewhat Denver got in return for Cutler…..Not who foreced the situation.
by BennieBladesFan on Dec 17, 2009 10:02 PM EST up reply actions
You like what Denver got from Cutler?
as i said above, they got screwed so far IMO…
- They lost a QB with alot more upside than Orton
- They used the Bears 1st round pick for Robert Ayers – He hasn’t started a game yet, and was a healthy scratch a couple of weeks ago. Last I heard he was only playing on passing downs when he is active.
- They traded the 3rd that they got from Chicago and their other 3rd to the Steelers for the last pick in the second round…basically moved up 12 spots for—-drum roll please——Richard Quinn, TE from NC. He’s had NO catches this year, and is only playing on special teams. OH, and he was arrested in September on doemstic violence and harassment charges.
- They only have one more 1st rounder in 2010 to get any value for Cutler (other than Orton), so they still have a chance to get something in return
So there’s 2 outs in the bottom of the 9th, 3-2 count, and they get ONE MORE SWING to get anything for Cutler. That’s what I don’t like about trading marquee players for draft picks, and it’s why, other than getting such an obscene amount pf picks that you can’t possibly screw it up,I wouldn’t trade CJ for draft picks.
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
Your right.....
……Trading a Qb is much riskier in my opinion…..You can win with Wr that arent in the top 5-10……Qbs though are much riskier to trade.
by BennieBladesFan on Dec 17, 2009 10:03 PM EST up reply actions
so orton or even cuttler for that matter is top 10 IYO??
to a degree you have a point a good QB can make bad WR look good(no one can make BJ and northcutt look good) but he has to have a good line look at all the teams that have a good QB but not much for WR they all have good lines…
but when you have a crape line you need to have a dominating WR or RB or they will just rush 8 all game long
Just Remember matt... what would Daunte do??
So we trade Calvin for 4 First-Round picks and a 2nd Round pick........
……..and select Aaron Gibson, Stockar McDougle, Jeff Backus, Dominic Raiola, and Gosder Cherilus to rebuild the OL.
Oh wait, we already did that. 1999, 2000, 2001, 2001, and 2008. The first 4 of those guys in a span of 3 years. How’d that work out?
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
Im saying do it becasue.....
…..this staff showed they can draft and scout…..Did you not like last years draft?…..this is not millen in the board room making decisions.
by BennieBladesFan on Dec 18, 2009 9:28 AM EST up reply actions
I liked last year's draft......that's exactly my point!
We got 5 starters out of that draft. If you have confidence that we can do it again, THEN WE DON’T NEED TO TRADE CALVIN!!! With drafting like that, we can rebuild quickly enough. Patience. When you find a diamond, you don’t throw it in the street. We can keep Calvin, and draft more talented starters to ADD to him, WITHOUT MAKING ANY FOOLISH TRADES.
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
On the flip side, if you dont trust our drafting, dont trade for picks........either way, my point is it's either unnecessary or foolish to trade Calvin
Either way, it makes no sense to trade one of the greatest finds in years. Either we can draft enough good players to surround him without making a trade, or we’ll draft so badly that we shouldn’t make a trade.
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
I'm not gonna really comment on the CJ-Trade stuff...
Already did that, so, identity-wise I’m not really concerned about those sorta things. Identity is developed by winning, I don’t think many teams build with an identity in mind beforehand. We just gotta build via talent and the identity will provide itself.
2009 = The start of the Lions Golden Age (We hope).
Zack Follett: he will hurt your mind.
I thought this post was about identity
Instead, it seems to be about dismantling our identity and trading a proven star for unproven draft picks or average players. If you trade all your stars for average players, your identity is……….an average team. If you trade your stars for the NFL eqivalent of scratchoff lottery tickets, your identity is……..laughingstock.
I’d like to set the bar higher. I’d like to win a Super Bowl. The Hall of Fame is full of stars who led their teams to Super Bowl wins. It’s been done. It can be done. We have the foundation. We can add to it. I won’t settle for less. We’re not turning back now. No more tearing down and rebuilding for 50 more years. I’ve heard this all before, for the last 40 years (people even wanted to trade Barry). No more. Full speed ahead to the Super Bowl! Go Calvin!
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
It is about identity...
The question is what does the front office want to do with this team? Offensively, do we want a running team, passing team, or just a balanced offense? This offseason will be pivotal in the Lions future imho…
If they want to run (as hinted at by picking ’Grew), then maybe someone like Megatron could be leveraged into different types of players…
If they want a balls out passing game, then Megatron is definitely the cornerstone, and Stafford too. So how do they add the remaining needed pieces?
A balanced Offense? We’ll this seems most likely. But you need pretty good OLinemen that can do both types of blocking well. Again, Megatron and Stafford could run this system well also.
The crux of the problem is how to rebuild for the future, in the most efficient manner, that helps the team long term. All situations, including trading Megatron, should be discussed. Even if it is unlikely that they would trade him.
We have so many needs across the board, how do you do it? Millen fucked us…
I’m of the opinion that a simple pound the rock Offense, coupled with a Tough-Ass Defense is the fastest way to get back to respectability. Then in maybe 5 years from now, after our OL and Defense are fixed, we go get the true freaks like CJ.
WR is unfortunately, not like RB, where we could just hand the ball to Barry. So freak or not, CJ is gonna need some help.
I think it’s been a great discussion, and I see both sides arguments as valid. In the end, only M&M and Schwartz know… I hope they get it right.
Just livin' the dream...
I think you're right about
pounding the rock and a strong defense. I would have preferred if we had done it that way. But we didn’t. We drafted Stafford. Now we’re going to throw the ball. We are (hopefully) not paying this guy so many millions of dollars to hand the ball off. Since that’s the case he needs a WR that can catch the ball. The only one that has shown he can is CJ. Our identity now is tied to Stafford’s arm. Now we need to protect it (OL) and slow down the other team.
In the end I see the Lions as being alot like the Colts. We will put offensive pieces around Stafford, so that they can grow together then slowly add the defense we need over time. We will have to win shootouts for a while and then hopefully we can get a Freeney and Mathis (by that I mean defensive studs) and we can start to hold the other teams offensive down.
So everyone.....
…..One of the reason I say trade mega is that I dont think we will bust on all these picks….This staff proved they can draft with last years draft…..If we can get 8 picks and hit on them all like we did last year id be very happy……I guess some people didnt like last years draft?…..I loved it…..so people bringing up aaron gibson and stockar mcdougal must have forgot that that was a different staff and front office.
by BennieBladesFan on Dec 18, 2009 9:30 AM EST reply actions
LET ME SAY AGAIN....
…..im not saying to do it im just saying that if you get an offer of 6 picks for a wr you have to do it……Just cant turn it down…..I love Mega but youd have to make that tarde for 3 1sts 3 rds
by BennieBladesFan on Dec 18, 2009 10:32 AM EST up reply actions
So who catches the ball that Stafford throws?
Seriously. That’s what it comes down to. We’ve seen that Northcutt, BJ, DWilliams, etc. all have a hard time catching the ball consistently. Do we take another WR with one of those picks? Because we’re gonna need one.
Bring in guys that can catch the ball....
…..for a change……plus with the picks we get the defense gets better and the oline gets better…..Staff would have to to throw and Smith would have some holes……Petigrew isa great weapon.
by BennieBladesFan on Dec 18, 2009 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
Who are these mythical guys who can catch the ball?
Bryant Johnson and Dennis Northcutt were supposed to be those guys. Next year’s guys may not be those guys either. We need Calvin. He’s a great weapon, too. We already have plenty of picks. We can go draft 4-5 more starters next year without trading Calvin, just like how we got 5 starters this year without trading Calvin. If, however, you don’t think we can draft that well…….then we shouldn’t trade Calvin for a bunch of draft picks in the first place. Face it, it’s a “heads I win, tails you lose” situation. You can’t win this argument. It’s either at best unnecessary or at worst criminally foolish to trade Calvin. Either way, it makes no sense. So Calvin is staying. Schwartz said so. Calvin is staying and he’s going to be great. Deal with the greatness.
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
I can see your point
But the draft is shitstorm at the best of times. I think we were remarkably lucky this year, we hit some gold for once. Does that mean it will happen again? Who knows, even the best scouts and talent evaluators miss on players, that’s why there is busts so high.
Say we did hit with all 6 picks or whatever, we’d all be cheering the front office and thinking it was the best move ever. If we only hit with 2, some people may question the trade, especially if those two are only solid, not great. It’s a big risk, and not one I’m willing to take lightly.
2009 = The start of the Lions Golden Age (We hope).
Zack Follett: he will hurt your mind.
by Hyperion Ecta on Dec 18, 2009 6:24 PM EST up reply actions
Just Curious....How many 1st rounders would it take...
for the Colts to trade Manning? Or the Pats to trade Brady.
Is there a number? I am not sure that there is…
BTW, i am not saying that trading Calvin is akin to trading Brady or Manning…it is not even close. I am genuinely curious.
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
well...
Belicheck said in an interview that Brady is priceless, and I have to believe Manning falls in the same boat.
The beginning of the end of the misery
by Latif Masud on Dec 18, 2009 11:22 AM EST up reply actions
It would take 2 whole drafts....
……And maybe more….Manning in my mind is the best football player ever so I would never trade that…..Brady is def more tradeable but would still take way to much.
by BennieBladesFan on Dec 18, 2009 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
Manning is priceless for sure
His dad was a QB, he was raised to be a QB. The guy is very smart about football, and a tremendous worker. It really is like having a coach on the field, and I have no doubt he will be a great coach when he hangs the cleats up.
Brady is great, but not in Manning’s league. Although he gets chicks like no other. Way better than Tiger, fo sho
Just livin' the dream...
tiger just likes 'em skanky
surprised he didn’t bang anyone from the Waffle House yet.
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
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