Lions Fans, It's Time To Move on from Millen
by VoiceoftheLions on Jun 21, 2009 3:02 PM EDT
119 comments
I can’t believe I’m saying this.
Neither can you, and I don’t guess your bitterness will be swayed so easily, but this is something that needs to be said.
Matt Millen, for all his shortcomings, for all the damage he did to the Detroit Lions franchise, for all of his stubborn press conferences and personnel decisions, still deserves a pass.
You heard me right.
I think. I’m still not sure I’m actually saying this, but I’m letting it ride.
I’ve been inspired to come to Millen’s defense because of all the backlash he has gotten from Lions fans since starting his recent TV gigs on NFL Network and NBC.
At one time, I would have joined right in, jeering him along with the rest of you. That time was not so long ago (you can measure it in weeks), but having heard the flame-tipped tongue lashings Millen has taken from my fellow Lions fans recently, I must say I do not revel in them one bit.
I’m not going to sit here and try to reason that we should feel sorry for the man. Like any player, coach, or executive, he bears the responsibility for his actions and decisions. Lions fans have developed a distaste for him because of those things, and that’s fine.
But there’s an important element to note here: Millen is no longer with the team. The rallying cry for the futile Lions over the past several seasons, "Fire Millen," has manifested.
The war is over.
So why do Lions fans continue to fight the battle?
From what I can tell, Lions fans feel that Millen has no right to get paid for an "expert" opinion, when his tenure with the Lions removes his credibility as an "expert" at anything but running a franchise into the ground. Does that sound about right?
Well, get over it. Millen was a terrible GM but a top-notch broadcaster, and like it or not he did a good job in the booth. Maybe his talent is breaking down complicated football trends to the average fan, and not leading them to make good personnel and management decisions.
Whatever his talents, getting angry because Millen is reprising his role as a broadcaster is absurd.
Let’s flip the situation.
Let’s say you worked for a major corporation, let’s say in public relations, and you’re good at it. Then someone came to you with an offer to work in an executive position in marketing. You take it, and you’re not very good, but you hold the job for a while—perhaps longer than you should—before finally losing it. Does that mean you’re not good at PR?
No, and Millen’s failure with the Lions doesn’t mean he’s a bad broadcast analyst or a bad person. It just means he’s a bad football executive, nothing more.
To be fair, Millen has done his fair share to draw this ire. He seems to take little responsibility for his actions in Detroit, sarcastically portraying himself as a "fall guy" for all of Detroit’s problems, including the housing market, the auto industry, and Kwame Kilpatrick.
Well, no, Matt, you’re not responsible for those things, but a 31-84 record with a reputation for spectacular draft busts is not inspiring to the good people of Michigan, and belittling the problems of the city of Detroit is not a great way to mend fences.
What you are responsible for is the Detroit Lions, circa 2001-2008, and fans have a right to be angry with you for those years.
But this is 2009. He’s not on the hook anymore. The franchise has moved on, and few can say it’s in the wrong direction. There may already be more talent on the roster now than there has been since Millen took over the franchise, and that’s in a single offseason.
It’s over, ladies and gentlemen. The Millen Years are over, so let them be over. Millen is not evil incarnate and he didn’t sabotage the team on purpose; he’s just a guy who loves football, knows a bit about it, and got in over his head. Anybody who has met him actually thinks he’s a stand-up guy.
Now he’s a broadcast analyst again, where he was once well-liked by both viewers and colleagues. So if you don’t want to hear what he has to say, change the channel. Boycott him, for all I care. Maybe the networks will get the message—probably not.
Regardless, Lions fans don’t need this hate. Not anymore. The 2009 season is supposed to be the first season of the rest of the franchise’s life. This is the time to look forward to the future with hopes and dreams of a winning record, playoffs, and a Super Bowl.
So make this a clean breakup. Being bitter and hateful about an ex-girlfriend never did me a bit of good, no matter how much they hurt me when we were together. What did me good was moving on and starting fresh.
Millen hurt me, too. He hurt all of us, but he’s moving on, he’s better for it, and it’s time we did the same.
Dean Holden is the "Voice of the Lions" on NFLTouchdown.com. Check it out for in-depth analysis on the Lions and all 31 other NFL teams.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Pride of Detroit's main writer, Sean, or the site in general. FanPosts are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable fans.
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First, your handle is "VoiceoftheLions"...
but you are NOT the voice of this Lion’s fan. I do not have to give Millen a pass on this. I’d go through all the points on why not, one by one… except you already did that. And you still feel like giving him a pass! Simply because he’s a good color man? C’mon, dude.
Millen destroyed our beloved franchise and has the audacity to portray himself as a victim and scapegoat and show little to no accountibility in his unprecedented failure as GM. You painted a colorful metaphor involving a corporate employee who succeeds and fails in two distinct areas. While there are similarities, this is not just any job here. This is a multi-billion dollar NFL team with millions of fans worldwide. This man should not have been handed the keys (WCF’s folly) nor should he have accepted the position.
Case in point… I am a finance analyst for a large Mid-Michigan company. I am good at what I do. But if they called and offered me the position of CEO, I would turn it down. I am not qualified to handle that job at this point in my career. Millen should have never accepted a position managing a pro team when he has ZERO experience in managing anything other than his playing and broadcasting career. No scouting, no management, no nothing. Pure and simple… he was a great player and a good bull-shitter… i.e. color comentator… but that’s it. GM, he is not. Nor should he ever have been.
Now… as an apparent Lion’s fan… you are simply going to give him a pass and let him go make millions more talking about something he obviously knows nothing about? So he can talk and B.S. Big deal. You know and I know and all the others at this site know what the extent of his knowledge really is… and that makes him a fraud. I know, I know… some of the other broadcasters have less “football” experience than Millen. True enough. But they have not shown the ineptitude in an area of football like Millen has. How can you ever listen to his ramblings and say that you can really believe or trust his analysis? I can’t.
So give him a pass? Ummm…. no. Never.
by DrewsLions on Jun 21, 2009 6:47 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
well put Drews
I was posting something similar to yours. But you put it better than me. Millen held this organization hostage for eight years. He will never get a “pass” from me.
by JCruize on Jun 21, 2009 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and 1
No one shoul of even replyed to this post for the simple reason that you mentioned the unmentionalbe 1 by name!!!!!!!! I want to like you voice cause you have had a some points on different posts that I liked, but please don’t mention the unmentionable by name again, it just leaves that not so fresh feeling on my tongue,I need a piece of orbit gum for just thinking about him.
by davis0169 on Jun 24, 2009 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no couldn't be...Matt is that you.
Pass my ass, how do you say it dosen’t make him a bad commentator, if you can’t judge talent, can admit when your at fault or wrong, and can put a coaching staff together that should not coach high school kids – YES THAT MEANS YOU ARE IN THE WRONG JOB.
by WV LIONS FAN on Jun 21, 2009 7:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
A different point of view
I’m not gonna bash you Voiceofthelions, as your opinion is certaintly valid. I prefer not to think of Millen anymore and while I’m not giving him a pass on what he did to us, I’m not gonna keep going on about the guy, he’s in the past now, and that’s where I’ll keep him.
Nice perspective anyway.
2009 = The start of the Lions Golden Age (We hope).
by Hyperion Ecta on Jun 21, 2009 9:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Dean
I for one agree with you, as I have previously said many of the same things which you posted here. I also want to point out (again) that Matt Millen was regulated and restricted by the owner of the Detroit Lions in William Clay Ford. I find it absurd and even ironic that so many people actually place all of the blame on Millen, when in fact the man in the background had hold of the puppet strings. I do feel that Matt Millen made mistakes as the GM of the Lions, those which had nothing to do with WCF at all. Everyone makes mistakes, but some of them are unforgivable to die hard Lion’s fans. You will find it very difficult to persuade many Lion’s fans to simply overlook Millen’s debacles, and I am no different. In that aspect, Matt Millen does not deserve a “pass”.
On the other hand, I also agree with the fact that Matt Millen is just a human being, subject to error and imperfection, just like the rest of us. I agree that he was a good broadcast analyst before he was the Lion’s GM, and I agree that he will be a good broadcast analyst again now that he is no longer part of the Lion’s organization. In that aspect, I do feel that Matt Millen deserves a second chance. The only thing that he proved to the world, during his tenure as the Lion’s GM, was that he has no business running a football team. He proved that he is not a good general manager in the professional sports setting (or at least that he could not succeed within the parameters he was restricted by). He also proved in the past that he was a good, if not great, broadcast analyst. Just because he does not have what it takes to run the operations aspect of a professional football team does not mean that he does not know football. It simply means that he is not a good business man and that he was in over his head as the general manager of a multi-billion dollar franchise.
I do think that he should have kept his big fat mouth shut after he left Detroit, that he would have been much better served with “no comment” replies to the media questions about the Lions after his tenure ended, and that he should exercise some humility and think before he speaks, but I do not think that he deserves to be condemned or called a fraud as an analyst because of his failures in Detroit. As GM of the Lions, I hate him just as much as the rest of you all do. As a human being, I think he deserves to have the opportunity to go back to doing what he was good at before taking the position in Detroit.
by KDawg on Jun 21, 2009 10:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
2009 = The start of the Lions Golden Age (We hope).
by Hyperion Ecta on Jun 22, 2009 4:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will still respectfully disagree, KDawg
Yes, Millen was puppeted to some extent by WCF (probably much less than you think, though). Yes, Matt Millen is a human and deserves to be treated as such. But that’s not the crux of issue here. The issue that VoiceoftheLions brought up was giving the sap a pass and second chance with Lion’s fans. That is going to be a very, very tough sell.
I feel MIllen deserves every bit of the criticism he has coming his way from everyone… especially Lion’s fans. Look, I’m not a basher by nature. I wasn’t marching in the Millen-Man march or phoning in death threats to the guy’s residence. But to give a guy a pass based on his performance is unfounded.
Let me see if I can get all of this straight: Man is good football player. Man has great career and gets gig in broadcasting. Man is good at said job. Man gets offered GM position with Lions with absolutely no front office experience. Man accepts job that he clearly has no ability to perform. Man runs team into ground. Man is unwilling to give up position amid significant losing and calls for him to resign by millions of fans that love their team dearly. Man ignores all fans and still thinks he can “fix” his mess. Man is fired after destruction of team is complete and racks up the first defeated season in the long life of the NFL. Man goes into hiding for far too short a time. Man appears at Super Bowl and pisses off millions as he passes blame on others. Man decides a few months is enough time for fans to heal and accepts another high profile job talking about the thing he obviously knows little about… NFL talent. Man cries scapegoat and spits squarely into the face of every good fan of the beloved Detroit Lions. Man could give a crap less about fans. Man loves himself.
That sum it up? I just can’t treat Millen like any other Joe out there trying to make a living. Yes, he’s a good talker, but his analysis is a joke and a sham from here on out. How can I pretend he’s not a total fraud? Because he’s eloquent? C’mon. I think you are asking the impossible for most Lion’s fans.
by DrewsLions on Jun 22, 2009 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Very well put Drew.
Millen reminds me of other frauds from 2001 to 2008. Same yardstick should apply. They usually don’t though.
by NorthLeft12 on Jun 22, 2009 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I respectfully accept your disagreement.....LOL....:o)
I agree with you Drew, on many aspects of your opinion. Does Matt Millen deserve a second chance with Lion’s fans? I think that depends. In what regard are we supposedly giving him a pass for? To become a GM in the NFL again? Absolutely not. For the mistakes he made as the Lions GM? Absolutely not. For not resigning when he was not fired and it was obvious that he couldn’t do the job properly? Absolutely not. For running his mouth and placing blame on others (not including WCF himself) after he was ousted in Detroit? Absolutely not. For trying to make a living after the fact, doing something that he was always good at? I say yeah, he deserves a pass there.
In getting everything straight, I agree with you that Matt Millen was: A good football player who had a great career and then followed it up in broadcasting, that he was offered the Lion’s GM job by WCF, based solely on the idea that he was such a great player and football analyst, that he accepted the job most likely knowing that he would have to learn as he went, that he did not counteract things that were already occurring in an organization that was already being run into the ground and had been for almost 50 years, that he was not willing to give up (which is admirable in most situations), and that he did not listen to the call of the fans for his resignation (what professional in their right mind would listen to the masses when there was no indication from senior executives that he was not doing what was expected of him? (There are a lot of Presidents of the United States that I wish would have resigned just because their approval rating was low….GAG….Bush….GAG).
I agree that he was confident in himself that he could “fix” the mess (another good quality), that he was finally fired (thanks to Bill Ford Jr, who actually has a brain), that he did not lay low long enough afterwards, that he ran his mouth too much (and in a very insulting manner I might add) when he did appear on a national scene, that he has to move on and try to go back to broadcasting to support his lifestyle, and that he does not care what we Lions fans think as he is looking out for number 1 (which most people do).
I disagree that he knows little about NFL talent. Every draft pick that he made, including Mike Williams and Charles Rogers, were highly touted prospects. It was unfortunate and unlucky that they did not pan out. I also disagree that he knows nothing about football as a game, from a player’s viewpoint. That is just ridiculous. I can not disagree with you that it is not going to be easy for Lion’s fans to forget what Matt Millen did as the team GM. I do not disagree that he does not deserve a pass in that aspect. I do disagree that he does not deserve a second chance as a football analyst. The fact of the matter still remains that if you don’t like what he has to say, you don’t have to listen. I think he deserves a pass solely in the aspect that he is a human being who makes mistakes, and all people deserve a second chance. I clearly understand that some Lion’s fans will disagree, and I will not hold it against you. However, I am a HUGE Lion’s fan and I will not condemn Matt Millen to a life of seclusion for failing to fix something that was already broken when he got there, and which had an owner who never allows it to be repaired.
by KDawg on Jun 22, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I respectfully accept your disagreement with my disagreement of your... uhhh, you get it :)
Couple things here, KDawg:
First, Millen did in fact inherit a 9-7 club that was not quite a serious contender, but a respectable team and ultimately competitive. The downfall was they were plagued with inconsistency, of course. Millen was brought in to turn a decent team into a contender. So Millen’s first order of business… clean house. How did they do the next season?
I agree that there has been a lot of losing in Detroit, but we have NEVER been as bad as we were under Millen. Through the 90’s, we were an on and off playoff team. Millen’s so-called good qualities only apply if they are correctly applied to building a franchise. Instead, these qualities made him a villian.
Second, I have to strongly disagree with your take on Millen’s talent evaluation ability. Rumors have abounded for years about his penchant for snap decisions on draft day and not listening to his scouts (see Harrington, Joey and Calhoun, Brian for details). To be completely honest…. I could have fielded better talent. That is not tongue-in-cheek… I am dead serious. I think anyone on this site could have. For one, most of us would listen to our coaches and scouts.
I just look at the top to bottom failure during Millen’s draft and it is absolutely mind-boggling. While the Packer’s entire o-line (and a decent one at that) is comprised entirely of late round picks, we can’t hit on a SINGLE second round pick. Unbelievable. I’m just not sure where you get that sentiment from. Yeah, he’s had some bad breaks with a few of his high first rounders, but that doesn’t do his story justice. His real destruction of the team took place in the second round and back…. an absolute travesty.
Lastly… and most importantly… I think I figured out why we have such a hard time connecting on views. I’m politically a conservative by nature and a Bush man. I think that might be a lot of our problem. I guess what we need here is a little bipartisan politics!
by DrewsLions on Jun 22, 2009 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
geez...
If Matt Millen is the key to uniting the country….we’re all screwed :p
Official BYB Juju Consultant...now accepting rally creature applications!
by ahtrap on Jun 23, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
I can’t comment politically, or I would. I am a democrat, if that wasn’t obvious, and my best friend is a republican. I’ll leave it at that……:o)
Drew, are you trying to say that none of the draft picks acquired during the Millen era are any good? Are you trying to say that Matt Millen made all of the decisions and made all of the draft picks by himself? I know that you know better than that.
i clearly remember the year that Joey Harrington was drafted. I was one of the biggest anti-Joey people around! I kept saying please don’t draft Joey Harrington, draft Quinton Jammer. Why was I even considering the possibility of the Lions drafting Joe Blow prior to the draft? Because it was all over in the media, in every “expert” blog, and even on a great many forums that Joey Harrington was the next Joe Montana. He was the “Golden” boy and he was going to be a future HOF QB in the NFL. Matt Millen (AND CO) must have thought the same way as the rest of the “experts” at the time. He thought he was doing the very same thing that Mayhew, Lewand, and company are trying to do this year. He thought he was drafting a “franchise” QB and everyone (using the term loosely) agreed at the time.
Brian Calhoun was another highly touted prosepct, along with Charles Rogers and Mike Williams. These guys were looked upon as prospects who were going to be something special in the NFL. Matt Millen (AND CO) was trying to make our team better when these guys were drafted. I was ecstatic when we got Charlie Rogers and Mike Williams. Rogers even showed flashes of brilliance before he was injured. These “failures” can not be blamed solely on Matt Millen.
“Through the 90’s, we were an on and off playoff team”. I have two words for you that explain all of that. Barry Sanders. You could also put Wayne Fontes in this explanation, as he was the man who talked WCF into getting Barry, and he was the coach that temporarily “restored the roar”. When Wayne left, even with Barry Sanders we did not again have a winning record other than the 9-7 years of 1997 (with Barry) and 2000 under coach Bobby Ross (with Scott Mitchell at the helm, Herman Moore and Johnny Morton at WR, and James Stewart at RB).
Shaun Rogers, Raiola, Daniel Bullocks, and Gerald Alexander were all 2nd round Millen draft picks. Backus and Manny Ramirez were Millen picks, as well as Gosder Cherilus, Kevin Smith, Fluellen, Avril, Landon Cohen, Drew Stanton, Alama-Francis, Ramzee Robinson, Ernie Sims, Dan Orlavsky, Roy Williams, Kevin Jones, Keith Smith, Alex Lewis, Cory Redding, and even David Kircus…..all of which are either still in Detroit or playing elsewhere in the league. Out of 62 draft picks that Millen had from 01-08, 22 of them are still in the league (35%) and have at least seen some (even if a small amount) of success. Sure, the jury is still out on many of these guys….and I do agree that many of our later round picks have not panned out, but the NFL draft is just a crap shoot. Millen (AND CO) did draft the same way as many other successful drafters draft….balancing picks between offense and defense. What can you realistically expect as a success rate for draft picks? I would say that 50% would be an insanely ridiculous target.
Imagine my surprise to find out that Millen used exactly 30 picks on offense and 32 picks on defensive players.
Okay, so maybe Millen used about an equal number of picks on offense and defense. Perhaps he chose defensive players in the late rounds, and offense mainly in the early rounds.
Nope, that wasn’t the case either. Of his first day draft selections (rounds one and two), precisely ten players were chosen on each side of the ball.
Finally, Millen seemed to have followed conventional wisdom by selecting a balanced number of players on defense and offense, which has been a relatively common occurrence among the best drafters. His Draft Blueprints look very similar to those of the great evaluators.
I had a theory that his drafts would look structurally different on the most basic level (as shown in the Draft Blueprints). But his failures in the draft are more subtle.
A most disconcerting thought, perhaps Millen did many things right, but had the worst string of ill-fortune in the history of football.
http://www.nfldraftblogger.com/2009/06/matt-millen-draft-history/
I don’t even think I named all of the Millen draft picks that are either still with the team or in the league. I can’t remember them all. Anyway, I wish we could actually see if there is a correlation between successful teams and successful late round drafts. I wonder if teams that are successful are filled with late round picks that play above and beyond their draft position. You could name a few guys, like Tom Brady, but I doubt that the most successful teams have a bunch of 5th, 6th, and 7th round starters. Rounds 1-3, and maybe even 4, would be my bet.
by KDawg on Jun 24, 2009 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
C'mon, KDawg... I can't believe what I'm reading here...
You… a hardcore Lion’s fan that has watched your beloved team be reduced to the worst franchise in professional sports… are defending Millen’s draft record??? I have to say I’m quite taken aback by your adamant stance. It’s one thing to say, “hey, let’s not pile on the guy too badly here”, but it’s another to go on and on about how good his drafts were. Maybe you don’t mean to say his drafting was good, but that’s how you’re coming off to me here. With all due respect, I think you are way, way off.
No team can have even decent drafts and go 0-16… none. It takes a series of massive mistakes in the draft to fail as badly as Detroit has over the Millen era. I think you are taking my comments on Millen’s drafting a tad too literal… of course, he’s had a couple of good picks here and there. We could all have done that. But when I talk about how well he’s drafted, I’m making a relative comparison to the 31 other GMs across the league. And with that comparison, my friend, he is at the very bottom of the totem pole.
You named Rogers, Bullocks, Alexander and Raiola as his 2nd round hits… really? Bullocks is currently playing with the third string, Alexander may not beat out Kalvin Pearson for crying out loud, Rogers is an overweight, underachiever on another team and Raiola is a decent player, but fans are constantly calling for his replacement. Most of the other picks you talked about are guys that were drafted in the last two years and the jury is still out on them.
I know that part of your point here is that some of these guys were consensus top-level talent…. the Charles Rogers and Mike Williamses of the draft. That’s true to a sense. But Millen took known risks and failed with these guys. Rogers was a pothead and he knew it. Mike Williams was overweight and out of school for a full year and everyone knew it. I don’t remember the same pre-draft Harrington story as you do. I remember many viewing him has being a reach for Detroit at number 3 and many analysts calling him a Tedford-system quarterback that might struggle in the NFL. Again, he was a bit of a risk that Millen gambled on and lost. Sure, maybe Detroit wasn’t the only team that would have taken him that high. But it doesn’t matter, because we did and the pick failed miserably.
As for the 90’s Lions…. I never said they were championship caliber… I said they were an on-again-off-again playoff team… which they absolutely were. Yes, Sanders was a huge part of that. But that doesn’t matter one iota. The simple fact is that they were at the very least competitive… inconsistent, yes… but competitive nonetheless. You’re also dissing a lot of other great players on those teams… especially defensively, that contributed (Blades, Elliss, Scroggins, Spielman and many others). They just couldn’t put it all together to make a good run. That’s what Millen was supposed to do. Instead, he destroys the team and you defend his draft record.
I really hope that you’ve over-emphasized your stance here in the name of debate. Because I’d hate to really believe that you feel this strongly about Millen’s draft record. In my opinion, it’s probably the worst stretch of drafting in NFL history. That’s a strong stance I’ll stand by.
by DrewsLions on Jun 25, 2009 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
I’m not saying his drafts were great, and I am not saying they were horrible. I am saying that they were about average. With the NFL draft, and many other things, you win some and lose some. It’s a crap shoot. Doesn’t the old saying go “No guts, no glory” or “All bust, no balls” or “risk = reward”?
I really think you are over-emphasizing how bad Millen was. Yes, he was bad. Yes, he made mistakes. But that is all it was…..mistakes and bad luck. If the prospects Matt Millen took a chance on had become great, we would all be talking about how awesome he is right now. The real blame falls on Ford.
by KDawg on Jun 25, 2009 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay... another agree to disagree, right?
I don’t think it’s possible to over-emphasize how bad Millen was. Do you know how many GMs have come and gone in this league and have done better than Millen (outside of expansion)? All of them. Sure, Ford deserves his, but this was Millen’s baby and he threw it out with the bathwater.
After Ford’s comments today, I feel even stronger that this debacle was more Millen than Ford. Ford is guilty of being overly loyal and for hiring poor talent. The drafting and selection of free agents is the personnel guy, the GM…. Millen. Your opinion is yours though….
by DrewsLions on Jun 25, 2009 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
howdy drew
welcome back first off and I know the REV don’t need my help cause I can’t give it to him here but 1 thing struck a nerve with Charlie and the Smoke factory. If you think for 1 min that alot of the profesional sports players reguardess of the sport, are not on some kind of drug reguardless of if its pot or coke or something worse than you are fooling yourself. With Charlie it was a injury that screwed him, not the pot dude, Moss still smokes, I have no proof, but come on, he was a known smoker like alot of kids comming out of school, hell M Pheps is a smoker and he won how may gold medals for the USA.? I live in Saginaw and Followed him from saginaw “HIGH” school to MSU witch is known for what ? Growing grass, I actually know his mother and alot of his friends and I can tell you he was NOT a smoker coming out of “HIGH” school if he started at State I dont know but he was one of a small group from the High that was as clean as they come comming outta school. I just have to defend him guys he’s from my hometown.
by davis0169 on Jun 26, 2009 1:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Davis... I'm sure there are a lot of athletes...
in the NFL that smoke pot. I’m sure some can even still do it and manage to play well. That’s not my point. My point is that Rogers tested positive at the combine and Millen and everyone else knew about it. Regardless of whether you think that smoking weed is right, wrong or indifferent is irrelevant. The fact is, you are about to give this young man a massive contract and you’ve got to be sure that this isn’t a problem.
Yes, Rogers got injured. He got a raw deal there. But what did he do during rehab of those injuries? He got lazy, slow and continued to do drugs. That led to his suspension and ultimately his career failing. So don’t tell me his drug problem had nothing to do with his career falling apart. It had EVERYTHING to do with it. You’ve got to admit that even if you are a Saginaw native.
by DrewsLions on Jun 26, 2009 8:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh yeah
I feel like Kool-aid man saying that OH YEAH. I miss understood what you were trying to say and I think that REV Kdawg told me that he tested positive prior to the draft but I forgot about that until you just reminded me, so my bad bro. And you are very right he did nothing during his rehab except get slower and lazier.
by davis0169 on Jun 27, 2009 2:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the Irony rev
is that if the fool wouldn’t have kept screwing up with all of the different changes he kept making while he was here with players and coaches alie and he would of MANNED up to being a horrible GM then I could of seen it in my heart to forgive but the fool was a great player and only an average commentator at best, hell I can sit in a press box and call out whats going on on the field as well as any of them. And I would/will bet my life that I could do just as good of a job of calling games as the unmentionable 1. You know I hold you with high respect REV but not on most of your post. You are more even tempered than me but if “he that can not be named” never had another job in the NFL I wouldn’t lose any sleep over it, I don’t wish him dead; anymore; but he at some point will do a Lions game and that is irony cause the first time he says 1 bad thing about the lions or any team I would be putting my boots throu the TV set.
by davis0169 on Jun 24, 2009 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand your angst
But I see things a bit differently…..sorry man!
by KDawg on Jun 24, 2009 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol rev
no need to be sorry brother,you know I’m ove the top to begin with and with that last post on hs pickes durring his tenure I bow to the Rev and again we are on the same page. I loved most of his picks at that time when we drafted them, at least the early picks that is, but like someone else stated he should of fired himself after 5 years of futillity.
by davis0169 on Jun 24, 2009 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have never once..
heard or read that Millen was ever " regulated and restricted" by WCF. Everything I have read suggest the contrary. Millen had free reign over the Lions. Any player moves and signings that he wanted make. WCF blindly signed off on. The thing that really kills me the most about what Millen did is. He turned the Lions into a national joke. Maybe some of you don’t see as much living in Michigan. But not a day goes by. That I don’t read a comment about the Lions 0-16 season. Listen to my local sports talk radio stations. I have Raiders fans saying " Well at least we are not the Lions." The “Simpsons” had a show recently. Where Ned Flanders was the " Worst person ever" And of course the real gag was. Ned was wearing a Detroit Lions Fan T-shirt. Millen turned the team that I love. Into the worst team in the history of profession sports. It was on his watch. He was the president and GM. WCF nothing to do with Millens’ decisions. Some of his public comments that he has made over the years. Do not lead me to believe he should be an analyst on television. Have we forgotten the Johnnie Morton incident. Where he waited in the tunnel after a chiefs game. And called Morton a " faggot". Whatever credibility he had before. It is now gone. And I do think that he is the type of person that holds grudges. So get ready for a season of cheap shots and put downs. At the expense of Lion fans.
by JCruize on Jun 22, 2009 6:45 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No GM in the WCF era
Has had “free reign” over the Lions, contrary to what anyone may have read or heard. Are you kidding me? WCF “blindly signed off on any player moves and signings” that his GMs wanted to make? That man is the SOLE reason that the Lions have been such a failure since the late 50’s!! The only reason we even got Barry Sanders was because Wayne Fontes was one hell of a negotiator and WCF wanted to put butts in the seats of the Silverdome!!
Case, point, and match is the example of Mayhew, Lewand, and Schwartz having to get the approval of WCF for all of the draft picks that they made and all of the free agent signings that they acquired. There is no way that WCF is just sitting there and letting anyone have free reign over his team. He is far too concerned with his own pocketbook and the profitability of owning the Lions to sit idly by and let someone else handle his business. Millen loved WCF, and WCF loved Matt Millen…..what does that tell you? It tells me that they had a personal relationship that went beyond a professional relationship, which means that they agreed on many issues, liked how one another thinks, and had no problems coming to agreement on what was best for the Lions organization. That is why Matt Millen did not get fired sooner, because he and the owner were friends!!
Yes, maybe Matt Millen had more pull than many of our previous GMs, but it is a fact that WCF is the man making all of the final decisions, and the man who allowed all of the mistakes Millen made to happen. I do not agree with what Matt Millen has said and done since leaving the Lions, but he is the scapegoat to WCF’s incompentency, and that is a fact. I also agree that Matt Millen does deserve all of the criticism that he gets from Lions fans, since he couldn’t keep his big mouth shut and let well enough alone. Like I said before, he does not deserve a pass in that aspect.
by KDawg on Jun 22, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry. I have a hard time believing all of this.
From what source did you hear that WCF had to sign off on every draft pick?
I know he did on Stafford, but Stafford was the #1 Pick who they were giving a shitload of money to. Any owner would want to sign off on $70 million dollars.
The rest of the guys? I would like to hear that from the coaches and GMs themselves.
I agree 100% with you that Mr. Ford is a terrible judge of managers. He also showed a high degree of loyalty to people who did not produce and deserved to be let go well before they were. Russ Thomas, Chuck Schmidt, Matt Millen were a disastrous trio of GMs. Most of the coaches were not very good either, which the primary blame would land on the GM, not WCF. In my opinion, the only good coach the Lions had in my forty years backing the team was Bobby Ross. He quit out of pure frustration with incompetent management and the players he had to deal with.
I searched on Google for stories about WCF’s interference in the selection of players etc. and just did not see it. I would appreciate any sources that you could cite to back this up.
by NorthLeft12 on Jun 22, 2009 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I gotta agree with North on this KDawg...
I don’t see any evidence of this happening. I can’t believe that WCF is up-to-speed on the who’s who of the draft world or even in the world of free agency. Maybe the old coot is still smart as a whip, who knows. I really think that it is more of WFC trusting in the guys that he ordains for far too long and far too much. I actually think the complete opposite here. I think that Millen had free reign on personnel and the WCF “sign-offs” were simply formalities to keep him in the loop and to give him a basic direction that the GM was taking the team in by selecting that particular player.
Did Millen have to have WCF on speed dial in the war room? I’m not sure that there is that phone call before every pick to justify and verify that the old man agrees or for a “yea” or “nay” on the pick. Unless he’s in the war room, but I don’t think so. I’m with North in that if I don’t see some bit of proof that this is the environment, I’ll continue to lean to the side of “GM-reign” in Detroit.
by DrewsLions on Jun 22, 2009 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just go ahead and look at the Steelers FO
You know….the Super Bowl champs. If you look deep enough you’ll see that there are many people, such as Rick Spielman among others, who are in scouting, personnel, and front office positions, that have the Detroit Lions on their resumes from the 1990’s. Then take a look at their Superbowl rings. When they were in Detroit, did we do anything more than get to the playoffs and lose? No we did not. What is the difference and what is the same in the Lion’s equation?
The owner of the Pittsburgh Steelers is solely committed to football. WCF owns a multi-billion dollar automobile company and has a football team on the side as a status symbol. Rooney wants to win football games and championships, while Ford is more concerned with having players on the team that do not reflect poorly on his football team and thereby on him personally. This is why we draft players like Terry Fair over guys like Randy Moss or other excellent players with “character issues”. He has a say over everyone we pick and acquire.
While this evidence may seem to be circumstantial, even a person of average to low intelligence (like me) should be able to see it. The difference in Pittsburgh is that the owner is not William Clay Ford. What is still the same in the Detroit equation IS William Clay Ford.
I can’t provide a specific source for my claims. They are my opinion. Can any of you provide a source that specifically says that the Lion’s GMs have free reign?
by KDawg on Jun 24, 2009 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another point
Why is Bill Parcels not our GM? He is known to relish in the idea of a challenge, and in proving that he can turn bad organizations around. What better challenge and situation for that very scenario than the Lions? Can you honestly say that Mayhew and Lewand can do a better job than Bill Parcels?
It was said that Bill Parcels was interested in the Lions GM and President of Operations jobs, before Mayhew and Lewand were promoted. Why didn’t WCF hire him? It surely wasn’t for money reasons. When has he ever had a problem paying for coaches and front office personnel? I believe it is because Parcels demands that he have free reign. He demands that he have complete control unequivocally. WCF is not willing to give any GM that much control over his team, and thus refused to even consider Parcells.
by KDawg on Jun 24, 2009 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
just to add on
Parcel as GM and Cower as coach.
by davis0169 on Jun 24, 2009 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because having Parcells
would be a smart move and we can’t have that
by rwum14 on Jun 25, 2009 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
good point
With the current events of the last week, Ed Mcman, M “he he” jackson, the beautiful Farrah Faucet, theres still hope that WCF’s days are running out.
by davis0169 on Jun 26, 2009 1:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well that and
unlike the Steelers and patriots we just don’ seem to stick with the same coach for more than a few years. Now maybe if we could win a few games we wouldn’t try to run them all outta town, but the Steelers have only had 3 coaches since the 70’s an we have had that plus some in just a decade. I hope Swartz is still here 10 years fom now and if that happens then we will have turned the corner as a franchise.
by davis0169 on Jun 24, 2009 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But KDawg...
you can’t provide details that say the GM’s don’t have free reign in Detroit, either. I think for most of us, it’s just a little easier to believe that the GM is running the personnel side with WCF’s hands-off oversight than to think he’s some evil puppetmaster.
by DrewsLions on Jun 25, 2009 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see how you can believe that
when it has not mattered who the GM was, who the coaches were, or who was on the scouting staff (except during the 90’s when we had a lot of talented players…back when we had many of Pittsburgh’s current scouts and front office people). Even though we were inconsistent and still failing to get a championship in the 90’s, at least we made the playoffs a few times. Yet we still continue to fail year after year. Not only have we been failing year after year a majority of the time, but also we have been failing (a winning record is good, but it is not success when the goal is a championship) for 52 years. Granted, WCF has only been the owner of the Lions since the 60’s, but the one thing that has remained constant in the Lion’s organization over at least the last 40 years is the owner, William Clay Ford.
No matter what way you cut it, when it comes right down to the brass taxes WCF is at the root of every problem. He hires and fires the employees, and he makes the final decisions on (at least) the most important decisions. I will give you guys the fact that the GM and coaches probably do have free reign to draft who they think they should, and who they want. However, I am quite sure that WCF is “in the loop” and he knows what the draft strategy looks like and has time to check into the players that could become part of the team, if he so wishes. I think it is very likely that he formulates an opinion about prospective players, and I am sure he makes his opinion known to his staff. He may seem less proactive than reactive, but I think he is quietly proactive behind the scenes.
Millen may have been one of the (if not THE) worst GMs in Lion’s history, and everyone knows he made a lot of mistakes. In my opinion, while he does not deserve a pass for his failures as GM of the Lions, he can not take the majority of the blame. As I said before, WCF deserves the blame as he is the one who gave Millen the job and the one who refused to fire him when he was not getting it done. If anything was, or has been, “blind” in reference to WCF, it is his apparent lack of concern for what the fans think, what his staff is doing that he is not in control of, and when it is time to get rid of loose ends. If a person is given the ability to place staff into positions that have a significant effect on an organization’s success, and those people do not perform to a standard that is conducive with such success and are still simply left to carry on doing what they do, then the blame falls to the person who put them in that position. Without going into a very repetitive and obvious explanation, normally crap rolls downhill right? When things go wrong in a corporation, usually the executives get a hold of the people in the next level and ream them a new one, who then ream their subordinates, etc etc….until things are corrected. If those executives knew there was a problem and took no action, then who is to blame?
by KDawg on Jun 25, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do agree that WCF is very guilty of...
being a horrible judge of management talent. That much he definitely is. But I just can’t get your willingness to absolve Millen for his crimes against the fanbase. I just can’t get past that.
Maybe it’s just a simple philosophical difference of who we think was running the show during the last eight years. In my mind and from everything I’ve read and can gather, WCF gave Millen total control over personnel. I’m sure the old man still had to give his head nod on the top picks or the highest paid free agents (were there really any). But at the end of the day, I believe that it was Millen who was the one with the design of what the team should look like. His constant “test run” of new coaches and philosophies every 2-3 years and his inability to judge talent and judge it against the current scheme the club was running was his ultimate undoing. That and he knew nothing about managing a pro ball club. That’s the only conclusion I can come to.
To think WCF was telling Millen the player he wanted in the 6th round or that Millen wasn’t the sole reason that Mariucci was hired and every other like situation is just too hard for me to believe. But again… I think it’s a philosophical difference…
by DrewsLions on Jun 25, 2009 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sometimes I wonder if you ever actually read all of what I say.....
I said clearly that Millen DOES NOT deserve a pass for his mistakes as the Lion’s GM. I also clearly stated that I do not feel he is entirely to blame. You on the other hand seem to think exactly that. I also said that maybe Millen and CO did have free reign, but in the end the blame really rests on the man’s shoulders that put those people in the position to make those decisions. I do not absolve Millen of his “crimes” against the fanbase, I simply do not believe that he was the only problem.
by KDawg on Jun 25, 2009 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do read your comments, KDawg...
but like mine they are long and what I end up with is a synopsis of your thoughts. Above you wrote “In my opinion, while he does not deserve a pass for his failures as GM of the Lions, he can not take the majority of the blame”. I see that and I think that you believe most of the failings over the last eight years resides mostly on Ford’s shoulders.
I’ve agreed all along that Ford is the enabler here, but the day-to-day mismanagement on the personnel front was MIllen, through and through…. IMO anyway. Maybe saying you were absolving Millen was harsh on my side, but I think you argue your point well, so you come off sounding a little farther to that side of the argument than you mean to. Anyway, it’s a fun discussion… for me at least. I get the feeling you don’t enjoy these debates quite as much. You seem perpetually irritated by me.
by DrewsLions on Jun 26, 2009 8:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
No man…..I am just adamant by nature. I like debate, but I hate semantics and petty bickering. I enjoy a good debate, don’t get me wrong, but it does bother me when I feel like someone is arguing their point without regard to what I said. I understand that it is easy to misinterpret what is being said here, so it’s all good. I have no problem with you personally. I may get irritated with what you write, but as a person I like you just fine. You do not personally irritate me, in other words, but sometimes I feel like you read part of what I say and react accordingly.
I do agree that Millen made a lot of mistakes that are inexcusable and unforgivable, but WCF is at fault for giving him that ability. So in my opinion, any mistake that Matt Millen made is the fault of the man who put him in the posiiton to make such a decision.
by KDawg on Jun 27, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hey I'm a MASTER
debater or is it bater. . . let me ask my hand. lol guys
by davis0169 on Jun 27, 2009 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that leadership is the #1 problem of the Lions
But a few notes. WCF is retired from Ford Motor Company. His son is the Chairman now. WCF’s biography is very short of details regarding achievements when he was at Ford. It seems like he was very hands off, and preferred others to do the actual work.
And about those high character players; Charles Rogers and Mike Williams show how poorly the Lions check out their picks for character issues. There was Reggie Rogers in 1987 too. A number of other teams passed over Randy Moss besides the Lions. I have issues with the Detroit Lion scouts and player evaluation. The abysmal draft retention rate of the Lions has been a major long term problem.
The leadership issue that I see is WCF not setting an overall direction or path for the Lions. Sure, the goal is to win the Super Bowl, but every team has that goal. The Steelers [and the Giants and the Patriots] have an identity and maintain high standards. Pittsburgh has had excellent defences since the mid seventies. They seem to draft and sign [or don’t resign] Free Agents a certain way. Their coaches all fit a certain mold, and are well educated in the Steeler way of doing things.
The Lions seem to change schemes on offence and defence every other year or with every coaching change. The coaching style veers from laissez faire to disciplinarian, rookie to veteran. This results in players not fitting the scheme and embarrassing themselves with their lack of knowledge of their assignment or they just don’t have the physical ability to do what they are being asked. There is no consistency here, and therefore no success.
Is this WCF’s fault? YES! YES! YES!
But trying to pin him with personally selecting every player is a very long stretch. WCF does his damage like every lousy CEO and President, by picking idiotic underlings, then letting them loose without direction or oversight.
by NorthLeft12 on Jun 25, 2009 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
About Millen
We seem to be using Charles Rodgers, Mike Williams, Joey Harrington as examples for against one side or the other in this discussion. The problem I have with those players was not if they did or did not have talent. Because I think they did. But my problem is their mental make-up. And Millen did away with the pre-draft psychological evaluation testing. That was according to Schwartz. Who brought it back this year. And my take on WCF involvement’s with the Lions. As being " Hands Off" That came from former Titans GM Flyod Reese. In an interview about two weeks after the firing of Millen. I read it in the US Today paper. I know it was on the internet as well. You probably read it as well. Reese basically said that “WCF was a hands off owner. That allowed his people to do their jobs with very little interference. That is why The Detroit Lions GM position is a dream job in the NFL.” This was backed up by three other unnamed current NFL GM’s.
by JCruize on Jun 25, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I went a little too far
But I never said he hand selects all of our players….I just said he has to approve of all players and signings. I seriously doubt that anyone can sign a player to a contract without WCF’s approval. IF he is blindly approving contracts, then that makes my argument even stronger in the matter of who is at fault for the Lion’s failures. IF he is as hands off as Floyd Reese and whoever else thinks he is, then that solidifies that portion of my argument as well. He is the owner. He should be making sure his staff members are doing their jobs properly, and he should be canning them when they are not. Was Floyd Reese or any of the GMs that backed his statements ever a member of the Lion’s front office, or the GM of the Lions?
Furthermore, the say Matt Millen was fired by WCF, this was reported by the media:
Detroit Lions chief operating officer Tom Lewand will now report directly to Mr. Ford on all business, organizational and NFL matters. Martin Mayhew will assume the role of general manager and report directly to Mr. Ford on all football matters. Also, Cedric Saunders has been named the Vice President of Football Operations./blockquote>
http://www.mlive.com/lions/index.ssf/2008/09/lions_statement_millen_relieve.html
by KDawg on Jun 25, 2009 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So basically every answer solidifies your argument, hey
I think people are just trying to say that Millen is at fault, too. No one is disputing Ford’s place in all of this as the worst owner currently in sports. BTW… don’t all GMs, Presidents, CEOs and every other similar position report to the owner? I think that’s pretty standard practice.
by DrewsLions on Jun 25, 2009 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I never said he wasn't
It is only you who keeps saying that I am saying Millen is not at all accountable for the failure of the Lions. That’s either because you aren’t reading my posts in their entirety, or you just don’t understand what I am saying. I already said everything else that I had to say above, so once again the argument has become moot. You have your opinion and I have mine.
by KDawg on Jun 25, 2009 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
All I am going to say is
You two guys are too funny and I find myself looking for your debates.
by shanndiggit on Jun 26, 2009 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Cardinals turn
Yeah I am so happy I have a nickname. Have any of you guys read or heard the WCF thing going around? I worked all day and didn’t get a chance to read/hear it as of yet but one of my close friends said that SR Basically put all of the blame on the unmentionable one and said something along the lines that he is in total control now, and he wats to put together a championship team or something like that. You guys all know how I feel about SR, but does anyone beleave that he has been trying to put together a winning team for over 20 years? I personnaly don’t and I desperately need to hear this story of WCF talking openly about trying to win since he bought the team all those years ago.
by davis0169 on Jun 26, 2009 1:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I posted a fanshot detailing a set of articles from a WCF press conference
Give that a read.
2009 = The start of the Lions Golden Age (We hope).
by Hyperion Ecta on Jun 26, 2009 3:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think KDawg enjoys them as much as I do, though
I love to get a good “back-and-forth” going as long as it doesn’t get too nasty.
by DrewsLions on Jun 26, 2009 8:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
sometimes people have to understand it isn’t personal. Everyone has a opinion and should feel free to express it. I love to argue with the best of em even when I know I am wrong just becuase it is fun. Everyone will eventually have a difference of opinion otherwise this site would have no need to exist if everyone believed the same thing.
by shanndiggit on Jun 26, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
most def guys.
but if you really want to have some fun go over to the other respected sites from our division and read what some of those guys think about there teams, the other day I went onto the windy city gridiron cause I had heardfrom a friend that Richard dent was trying to get into the HOF and boy all I was trying to do was give an honest opinion about what was wrong with DA Bears the last few seasons and Jeez talk about stirring up a hornets nest wow. It seems that most of the Bears fans seem to thinkthat with the signing of O pace that he is going to make the whole line something great and all I said was that he hasn’t had a good season in 3 years at least and can’t stay healthy to save his life my god are they closed minded over there. MaybeI shouldn’t have told them I was a die-hard Lions fan!
by davis0169 on Jun 27, 2009 2:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hey rev
maybe them 2 could of gotten a room for a week and had mad passionate monkey sex together, and then been done with it. You guys all know that I wish JR. to put SR in a home or get his mediction changed, but If what yoursaying is true rev why even get a GM then. Why not just be a dictator and say I’m going to do it myself. Jerry Jones and the fool in Washington have no problem doing it. And this is weird jumping on you, cause me and you usually see eye to eye, but def not on this subect. How about both of them take a long walk off of a short peir together and no one throw them a life-preserver.
by davis0169 on Jun 24, 2009 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bishop Jcruise
you’ve just been nick-named! I don’t know what my infatuation with religion an this site is but now I’ve got a POPE sean paul the III, the REV Kdawg, and now the Bishop is named. now I just have to find a Cardinal and I’m set. To the rest of the nation, it’s not that I don’t like most of you guys but these 3 are something special to me personally; not in the man-crush way; just in a man-crush kind of way, he he he. It’s just we all had so much fun that 1 day ganging up on poor Ralphie boy that I made a connection with you 3. and for the most part I truly respect what you guys all have to say as a hole. Has anyone heard from him since that day???? I might not have been posting but I have been reading almost daily and I can’t say I’ve seen his name anywhere.
by davis0169 on Jun 24, 2009 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ralph did pop..
in once that I remember. But I have a feeling that he is here. Just using a different name.
by JCruize on Jun 24, 2009 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh no rev
I would love the name to stick but I’m not in the same class as you 3 as of yet. Give me some time and I’ll be there but not as of yet I think usher or alterboy are more along the lines of my talent as of now but I’m learning from you 3 and others out here, but thanks for the thought.
by davis0169 on Jun 24, 2009 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks for the nick name I think????
Personally speaking. I know that sometimes we get into " heated discussions" with each other. And it is always about how we personally think the Lions could improve. Thats what it boils down too. Our love for our team. But I do have the highest respect for Drews, KDawg, North, you( Davis) and a bunch of others. I think that if we were all hanging out in a sports bar. We would all get along very well with each other. Bitch and moan a coulpe of times during the night. But in the end we would be buying each other a round of two.
by JCruize on Jun 24, 2009 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
most definitely
You hit the nail on the head there bishop! I really love chatting it up with you guys period. and if I ever get a chance to get you all together for a party or(tailgate) at a game I would be in 7th heaven, again with the religious punns hmm, I wonder if its cause football is played on sunday and it is a religion to me at least.
by davis0169 on Jun 24, 2009 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Don’t hate me for this but we would have to invite Ralphieboy also, every hot chick has ugly friend and he could be ours.
by davis0169 on Jun 24, 2009 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that was pretty funny....
about Ralphie. I would love for Ralphie to see a game. So he would see K Smith. As the starter and not Morris.
by JCruize on Jun 24, 2009 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh no you just didn't
go there bishop, I’m sitting here lauging too hard at that, hey I got a question now that you and the REV are online. Can either of you guys find out how much cap space we have left, I’ve been looking but can’t seem to find it anywhere, I was just curious because of the Follet post someone stated something about D Brooks as a back-up LB and I was wondering with all that was spent so far this off-season how much we still had left under the cap.
by davis0169 on Jun 24, 2009 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thank you partner
I’ve been looking for 2 days and can’t seem to find it . I have a feeling that I need to go to a different site in order to find it. And with all these gus that we signed and are here in camp when they get cut doesn’t that go against our cap also???
by davis0169 on Jun 24, 2009 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this site sorry
I guess I need to post it http://www.thenetrat.com/
by JCruize on Jun 24, 2009 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah....I just found that site too
Not sure how reliable it is……
by KDawg on Jun 24, 2009 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The spreadsheet linked to on that site is rather impressive
It shows how he calculated the cap…..
by KDawg on Jun 24, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
agree with that...
but i am sure( or hope) that they are in the ballpark
by JCruize on Jun 24, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is an estimate
And there was a lot of guesswork done to calculate the estimate….
by KDawg on Jun 24, 2009 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
looking it over. I see that to. But still interesting
by JCruize on Jun 24, 2009 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thank you guys
that is enough to go get 1 super star or a few real good players that are still young enough to matter. If we make anymore moves do you guys think that it will be linemen reguardless of what side of the ball?
by davis0169 on Jun 24, 2009 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and
when all these guys that are here get cut doesn’t there signing bonuses count against us?
by davis0169 on Jun 24, 2009 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dont think so..
right now i believe there is 88 players. Need to cut to 53.
by JCruize on Jun 24, 2009 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh....we only take a hit for signed players that get cut
I thought that was what he meant
by KDawg on Jun 24, 2009 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i thought
that all of the guy that are in camp were under some sort of contract already.
by davis0169 on Jun 24, 2009 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sweet
see guys this is why I cant take on the Cardinal status as of yet I have to start lower on the totem-pole somewhere down by the alterboy status
by davis0169 on Jun 24, 2009 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i found something
called askthecommish now I just have to find my own answer.
by davis0169 on Jun 24, 2009 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No....you're the Cardinal
lol….you ain’t getting out of that one.
I am not sure, but I thought I read somewhere on the home page here at POD why we are allowed to carry 88 players right now. All I know is that it had something to do with “cap allowances” or something to that effect….they are allowed to evaluate extra players before signing them, for salary cap reasons.
by KDawg on Jun 24, 2009 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the signing bonus's
will count against the team but being that it’s pro-rated over the course of the length of the contract.And thats nly if we cut the said player befor his contract is up
by davis0169 on Jun 24, 2009 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
yah but only the signin bonus’s no the actual contract itself
by davis0169 on Jun 24, 2009 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
according to that site
it’s as if we can take 88 players into camp but it’s kind of vague when you start talking about practice squad players.
by davis0169 on Jun 24, 2009 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cardinal Davis
Cardinals do research for the Pope….so get to work….lol.
BTW….the 88 player thing is still a mystery….it’s not on the POD home page either.
by KDawg on Jun 24, 2009 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, Millen does not deserve a pass
If he had quit after five bad years of GMing, laid low for a while, then came back to the broadcasting booth a while later, I still wouldn’t like it, but whatever.
He mismanaged this team for eight years, year after year, failure after failure to build a good roster or a good coaching staff. He didn’t have the dignity or the class to resign, oh no, not while all the money’s rolling in. GMing pays pretty well, doesn’t it Millen?
Then he goes around making statements like “I would have fired myself”. Well, Millen, you’re obviously still full of bullsh1t because you didn’t fire yourself. You should have, but you didn’t. Somebody else had to fire you, and they did it way too late.
No, I don’t think he deserves a pass. He’s not a “scapegoat”, he’s the head honcho who built the first 0-16 team, an abomination that shouldn’t even be possible.
by n4ry4 on Jun 22, 2009 9:00 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
+100
Great comments, n4ry4. I agree wholeheartedly that had he resigned somewhere in the 4-5 year point, he would still have had some shred of respect left in the football community and with Detroit fans. He could have simply said, “I tried and failed. The accountibility is totally with me and I am not qualified for this job. I am giving way to someone better as not to further damage a team that I love”. I would have probably respected that. Would I still have been upset? No doubt. But there would be much less of the animosity you see today.
He also should have laid low for about 3-4 years before trying for a comeback in the broadcasting world. At that time, I think most of us that are level-headed, would have been much more open to the idea of his ugly mug on our TVs again.
by DrewsLions on Jun 22, 2009 9:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hey drew
did he love the lions??? i mean he was a 49er for most of his career wasn’t he, thats the team he should of went to not the lions, I wish we all could of put him in a room and stoned him or hung him by his toes and cane whipped him 100 lashes for every loss, then he would of gotten better real quick!
by davis0169 on Jun 24, 2009 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he did love the Lions...
and I also think that he really did want to win badly in Detroit. The problem is… he simply wasn’t qualified for the job and wouldn’t quit while he was ahead. “A” for effort, “F-” for execution.
by DrewsLions on Jun 25, 2009 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent comments n4ry4
Its one thing to sell/flush your own dignity, but to drag a proud franchise down the toilet with you is the real crime.
I don’t pretend to know how he thinks or how he justified taking and staying in the job, but I will judge him on the results. Those results also have a direct bearing on his colour commentating. He is now in the buffoon class of colour commentators.
by NorthLeft12 on Jun 22, 2009 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I respect your point of view.....
…..as I have moved on and dont listen to anything Millen says……The new regime is in and thats all I care about…..GO LIONS!!!
by BennieBladesFan on Jun 22, 2009 9:38 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
SORRY, DUDE, THIS ONE STIX!
You can feel sorry for the guy if you want (reeks of weakness to me) but you gotta pay for your mistakes. Commit a crime, do the time. It’s really as simple as that. The fans wil eventually get over his wanton destruc tion of all things LIONs during his ‘reign of terror’,…but not until the damage is repaired at the very soonest. I would not be surprised to hear the fans talk of “the worst GM we ever had” for ….well, for 50 years. And, while I USED TO like him as a comentator, I reserve the right to challenge his ability to comment as if he knows ANYTHING about football. Millen, I will never forget…nor forgive.
by myPride on Jun 22, 2009 10:11 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I do not feel sorry for Matt Millen
And I respect everyone’s opinions and right to question his ability to comment about football, but again, running an NFL franchise and being an analyst are two very separate and very different things. No, I will not forgive him for the mistakes he made as the GM of the Lions, but I also feel that he deserves the chance to prove that he can still analyze football from a player’s standpoint. Being a player and a manager are far different things as well.
by KDawg on Jun 22, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BRO come on
The powers that be will put anyone on TV, I mean damn Dennis Miller , Cornhieser, Thiesman, Bill Walsh who was 1 of the best ever to be a coach but couldn’t call a game good enough to keep anyone awake for the entire game, the list goes on and on. Next thing your going to say is that GOOSE is a good comentator. LOL on that last 1. He may be better than the 4 that i put on here but not by much, Get him a seat next to Summeral at the end of his career when it was obvious that he was tanked up sitting next to Madden. WOW I’m sorry REV but he should not be in a booth antime soon.
by davis0169 on Jun 24, 2009 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Matt Millen
should die of gonorrhea and burn in hell…Laces out
by CR on Jun 22, 2009 11:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Millen is like a former boss of mine.
He couldn’t manage his department so when it came time to make cuts, he started creating scapegoats. I was one of several “lay-offs” supposedly necessary to the company’s well being. However, I heard later that his department continued to have problems and he was eventually let go. While I worked for him, I was continually insulted by his implications that I didn’t take my work seriously when I felt very serious about the work I was doing. I also felt very little support from him. When I was let go, I was angry, bitter, and downright disgusted with the way things were handled. That was 8 years ago. When I think back to those times, I still get a little twinge of bitterness and anger. I’ve let 99% of it go. The thing is that I will always feel that in that moment, I was wronged. That chapter is long over but it will never be forgotten. We all have moments like that.
Millen is one of those moments for Lions fans. No matter how successful the Lions become, Millen will always be viewed as the idiot who ruined the franchise. 100 Superbowl titles will not wipe the history books clean. I have moved on 99% of the way. I’m happy that Millen is gone and we can look to the future. But that 1% will always remain. Millen will forever be synonymous with failure in the heart of Lions fans. Move on? We have. Forget? Never.
by James L on Jun 22, 2009 2:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Good analogy, James
We will never forget the biggest thorn in franchise history that was Matt Millen. He will leave a sour taste for all of us for decades to come.
by DrewsLions on Jun 22, 2009 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oooooooohhhhh NOOOOOOOOOO!!!
I will stop talking about that piece of trash when we AT LEAST get back to where we were without him, a 9-7 team that could’ve been a playoff team. We had David Sloan, a pro bowl TE, that he cut in one pf his first moves. NOTE, I said I’ll “stop talking about”, but I give him a pass on nothing, I forget about nothing and I hope he wife for the rest of theoir marriage gives him nothing. He was in hell??? What’d he put US in ya dumb brawd?
by Darth Hitman on Jun 25, 2009 10:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Sloan was to injury prone bro
I would of cut his always hurt ass also. the sad part is he was probably the best TE we have had in years, until now long live PETTIGREW.
by davis0169 on Jun 26, 2009 1:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
$$$$$$$$
I can’t believe we still owe that loser money ….for what ???? pay himwhen we get charles rogers signing bonus back …..
marc hoople
by spinitnow on Jun 27, 2009 7:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
also ....
I really think millens biggest problem was not drafting the wrong players , but hiring the wrong coaches….you can coach greatness , an A coach and a c team can still be an A product , with a game plan and training …. an A team with an F coach is always an F team …coaches don’t make plays but they put there aces in the right places ….remember the tampa two .. can’t intercept if your not there …..can’t make players great when you suck …………….marraucci was a pussy and that’s why the 49niners wasted him … no conditioning …..marranalli waited 10 years as a line coach , because he is only good at line coach …millen had no leadership skills and they didn’t know what was expected ….
marc hoople
by spinitnow on Jun 27, 2009 8:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
an example..............
bud grant was a great coach for the vikings and they constantly went the playoffs with ……FRAN TARKINGTON ???? …had a shitty o line most of the time , had to run for his life , threw as many ints as tds and they were still a great team … COACHING ……TOOK WHAT THE GAME GAVE HIM AND MADE IT WORK FOR THE PLAYERS HE HAD …they lost 4 superbowls but at least they went ………
marc hoople
by spinitnow on Jun 27, 2009 9:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I love it spinster
you are right to an extent, yeah fran was all of what you just said but you are looking on the wrong side of the ball to understand why those V-queens teams kept winning . . .the Purple People Eatters were the reason they were so dominant for that decade like most good coaches who we think are great usually have a common factor. ..Great D-fences. 1 day and It looks like that day is dawning we will have a coach who also beleaves in the old saying O-fence fills seats D-fence wins championships. All we need is a care-taker at QB and a dominant D and we will have our titles that all of us dream of. Now this brings me to Swartz he’s been in a few very good team D-fence’s and knows what it’s going to take he’s at least been a cordinator for more than 1 year and Mayhew and comp put very good cordinators in place as I see it to compliment him. I don’t know what all of you guys think about Cunningham but I have been a fan of his for years, he knows how to get his guys to get after the other teams QB’s; when not being handcuffed by a bad coach that is. I just hope that in the following year or two we keep on drafting best plyers avalible not the ones that all of us fans want to see drafted like this year cause I know I didn’t want Stafford but like the Rev told me he’s ours and we might as well embrace him.Stilli feel that we are a D-line away from being a serious contender and with that said please let Avril be the beast that I know he can be and if possible get another big DT to help stop up that middle cause Jackson wont make it through an entire year healthy.
by davis0169 on Jun 27, 2009 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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