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Best Case or Worst Case = Basket Case

Disclaimer:  The thoughts and opinions represented in this article are those of the author and any similarity of ideas or depictions of persons, real or fictional, is purely coincidental.  Using this article without the expressed, written consent of the author is perfectly fine and can be shared with whoever the hell wants to read it.

Everyone here has an opinion on the Lions, right?  Optimistic, pessimistic, indifferent... whatever it might be, it's still a formed opinion based on the data presented in the argument or situation.  As the countdown to the Lion's training camp now enters the final week, I feel that we've all put our best thoughts and ideas to pen and paper (or more like keyboard to screen) to try to exude our feelings on what will happen with the Lions this year.  Some are very optimistic and think that we can make the "P-word" (for those new to the site, I have vowed not to use the word that starts in "play" and ends in "offs" with respect to the Lions until they actually make it).  Some feel like we have a lot to prove and are quite far from true contention.  The thing about it is... none of us really knows.  

The Lions of 2009 could be anywhere from a true-blue contender to a bona-fide joke.  Where you think we might fall into place within that very wide margin is simply a guess based on your personal views of the off-season moves.  Truth be told, this is probably the most unpredictable team put forth in Lions history.  It's a perfect storm of intriguing mystery and debatable unknowns.  The Lions were a winless team a year ago, but "appear" to have made some significant strides in the off-season.  They also still "appear" to have some major holes.  All of this breeds a level of uncertainty and it can be maddening to say the least.

I think the Lions will fall somewhere in the middle of the pack.  I don't think we'll see all the potential come to fruition this year, but I also don't think we see a bunch of turkeys crapping all over the field all season long like last year.  But for the first time in a long time, I think that the best case and worst case scenarios are miles apart. 

Star-divide

The Best Case Scenario

This is all a matter of opinion... so I'm sure other's opinion of a best case scenario will vary.  But taking all factors into account (schedule, off-season moves, etc.), I think the '09 Lions have a very high ceiling.  Call me a Kool-Aid addict, call me über-optimistic, whatever... but I think if everything clicks, the Lions could shock a lot of people this year.  This is not me saying that this will happen or that the Lions can go to the Super Bowl... it's just me saying that the Lions could accomplish more than some might think.  Obviously, the stars must align and certain conditions must happen for the Lions to achieve the top end of the potential spectrum.  I'll list a few of those.

First and foremost, the quarterback situation must sort itself out before the season starts.  It cannot be a revolving door between Culpepper and Stafford and whoever is practicing best that particular week.  And more importantly than the "who" is the "how"... meaning, how well the starter ultimately plays.  In order for the Lions to achieve a high level of success, it is imperative that the Lion's offense is run efficiently and with leadership exuding from that position.  I think both guys have that leadership quality, so it's ultimately about winning and execution.  I know most will be shocked to hear me utter these words (especially you, KDawg), but I think the top end of this best case scenario can only be reached by playing Culpepper.  Now let me level-set here.  I personally think that the best thing for the team long-term is to play Stafford, but that's not what I'm talking about here.  I'm talking about the best case scenario for this year... and with that as the backdrop - Culpepper might be the best shot of achieving that. 

Next, the offensive line must show significant improvement in both the passing and rushing game.  Duh, right?  But to get more specific, I think the key is in momentous potential shifts from Cherilus, Loper and Peterman.  It can happen.  I think all three of those guys could surprise us and all of a sudden we find ourselves with a much improved offensive line.  With Backus and Raiola, I think by this point it's "what you see is what you get".  Backus will never be more than an average, inconsistent tackle - regardless of scheme.  I do think his flaws can be masked somewhat by not leaving him one-on-one in the passing game and by having a good, bulky left guard next to him when executing the run offense.  Raiola is feisty and probably an above average center for the most part.  Regardless of what a lot of fans think about him, he is an asset to the team both on the field and in the locker room.  If more players had his attitude, we would win more games.  That said, Raiola will always struggle with the bigger defensive tackles in this league.  He's just a tad too small and will always have that work against him.  In the end though, if Cherilus, Loper and Peterman show tremendous strides, especially in the run game, we will have ourselves a pretty good line.  So contrary to many opinions I've read here, this could be the first time in many years where our line is an asset versus a liability.

We all know Calvin is a mega-stud.  He should account for most of our offense if Linehan is as smart as we all hope.  Kevin Smith should turn out to be a good back for the Lions and is brimming with confidence and youthful energy.  If Smith can turn into a great downhill runner and punch out 1300 yds this year, we will win a lot of games... even a few shockers.  If you can combine that with a 100 catch season for Calvin Johnson, we will be fielding one of the better offenses in the league.  I think two of the keys of that happening lie with two other players.  Both Brandon Pettigrew and Bryant Johnson need defenses to fear them.  Not like they fear Calvin, of course, but to fear them as enough of a threat that the defense is forced to view Pettigrew as a bona-fide blocking and receiving threat and Bryant Johnson as a guy that can burn the defense if too much attention is given to Calvin.  If those two can pick up their roles quickly, this offense could be absolutely explosive... both running and passing.  That's a scary and delightfully giddy thought.

The boom/bust potential of this team becomes very apparent when critiquing the defensive side of the ball.  The obvious holes in the defensive line and secondary cannot be ignored.  But again, if the dream of potential meets reality, this could be a really good group... my heavens, did I just say that? 

First, the linebackers were the most significant upgrade to the entire team this off-season.  If Larry Foote can show he's an every-down middle linebacker and a field general for this defense, we are going to be improved.  If Julian Peterson shows that he can still be the versatile Pro-Bowl caliber player that has the ability to flawlessly cover as well as add 5-8 sacks to the defense, we are going to be greatly improved.  If you put those two together with a newly energized Ernie Sims - who should be allowed to unleash his animal instincts and use his speed and tenacity effectively once again - we are going to have the best linebacking corps in the league - bar none.  That is very exciting to me and is not simply a pipe dream - it could very well happen.

Second, we must get pressure from the down lineman to be at all successful.  Avril needs to have a double-digit sack season.  There's no room for wiggle there.  To reach our max defensive potential, Avril needs to take a massive step forward and become the next, young Dwight Freeney.  Also, we need to get more plays than we think we can get from both Grady Jackson and Chuck Darby.  They need to surprise everyone with their play.  We also need to get some semblance of a rotation from our depth guys.  From Fluellen to Cohen to the young Stillman alum, we need our back-ups to make an impact - or better yet... play well enough to take over as starters.  Even the best case scenario on the line is not very good, I think.  But if we can keep from leaking like a sieve and get some pressure on the opposing quarterback, we should be moderately improved.

As for the secondary... two things are vital.  The first thing depends on the defensive line getting pressure.  That should mask some of the matchup problems in coverage, because again... I think the ceiling of the secondary is not very high.  Second, Delmas must be an animal.  He must catch on quickly to the speed of the NFL and make an immediate impact in the run defense.  If we are forced to rely on the likes of Manual and Pearson, we can really only be below average at best in our secondary.

All in all, I believe the offense has the potential to be very good... maybe a top ten offense if all of the above happens.  The defense, while potentially fielding the best linebacking corps in the league, might only be able to crack the top fifteen to twenty if all the stars align.  But if the offense is ranked 8th-12th and the defense is ranked 15th-20th, that might mean a winning season.  This, of course, is all barring significant injuries to our key playmakers.  Unlikely scenario... yes, but what a wonderful thought and my most realistic best case scenario. 

The Worst Case Scenario

Well, coming up with the worst case is pretty easy.  Just sit back in your desk chair, close your eyes and think about the 2008 season.  There you go... worst case scenario.  But, we have a different coaching staff and different personnel... so the road to unimaginably horrible will have to follow a different set of street signs this year.

First, a catastrophic injury to someone like Calvin Johnson, Kevin Smith, Julian Peterson, Larry Foote, Louis Delmas or one of the quarterbacks without the other being able to match great play, would likely end any bid to reach our peak potential.  Calvin would be a deal-breaker.  Without him, our passing game will lose every bit of potency and most likely become the anemic game of dink-and-dunk that we've come so accustomed to watching over the past few years.  Our defense without Peterson or Foote will most definitely be a setback.  Those types of big-name injuries almost always start a bleeding process for the team and slowly through the season, it all unravels.

Of course, if both Culpepper and Stafford struggle... game over offensively.  I think we are sure to get some good play out of Calvin and a few good runs from Smith, but we had those last year.  What we lacked was consistent line and quarterback play and without that again, we will rank no higher than last year.  And that, my friends, is losing football.  Not just losing, but badly losing football.... as in, down by 24 at the half and not getting any better kind of football.  That same level of offensive play will result in five or fewer wins and a guarantee at another top ten pick in the draft next year.

Defensively, it is a very slippery slope.  I don't think I need to go into a ton of detail here as we all know that there is a good chance that this defense could really struggle this year.  As stated above, an injury to one or two of the starting linebackers and this thing could get ugly very quickly.  We might see those same gaping holes and blown coverages of last year.  Also, we have to remember that Cliff Avril is a Matt Millen pick and although not taken in the second round, how well have his third rounders panned out?  We have to face the possibility that he might not produce his potential alá Kalimba Edwards.  If he doesn't, we'll get an average-at-best outing from White and that simply won't be enough pressure.  Without at least a decent rush from the front four, we are looking at an exposed secondary and a weakened linebacking group.  I believe in Schwartz and that he will be prepared on gameday, but I don't care if you are Vince Lombardi incarnate, you can't win or scheme without talent... period.  If we can't get pressure, cover or do the simple things like tackle or force turnovers, it's 2008 all over again and we are looking at a long, long season.

I think that it might be very easy to see a worst case scenario, unfortunately.  I think that's why I've tempered my expectations to brace for some of those situations above to materialize.  Injuries will happen.  That's just a part of football.  Let's just hope that they are not tagged to a Larry Foote or a Julian Peterson.  If they do, they will neutralize a massive amount of our defensive versatility and you will see less blitzing and a lot more of the bend but don't break zone scheming we all hate so much.

In Conclusion...

As I alluded to in the name of this article, there are so many unknown factors that could shift the Lions from contenders to cellar-dwellers that it can drive you crazy trying to decide which team we will ultimately see.   I think we'll see a combination of the two resulting in a progressive, but ultimately losing season.  I think that they'll make opponents respect them, but still not have enough talent to shut teams down or get over that hurdle of closing games out.  If that's the case, we're in for a roller coaster ride this season.  I foresee with all my Jedi wisdom that we will have some shining moments that give great hope to the future mixed with moments of shear frustration and speculation of whether we will ever turn the corner.  I see all this happening within each game.  I can see a 90 yd Culpepper/Stafford to Calvin Johnson play to go up by 3 late in the fourth quarter, only to turn around and see our secondary get torched on a skinny post for 75 yds between Anthony Henry and Daniel Bullocks with 30 seconds to go.  I think it's going to be one of those seasons.  Most likely, it won't be until week 8 or so before we will know the true identity of this team.

Ultimately, we have to understand this is really year one of the Detroit Lions Version 50.0.  There's just not enough talent and it will take the best of every scenario to realistically come away with a winning record.  Could it happen?  Absolutely.  Will it?  Most likely, no.  But the excitement and frustration lies in this team's enigmatic character.  High hopes shrouded in the unknown.  But guess what?  The Lion's first preseason game is in exactly 21 days.  That's when we'll get our first glimpse of either Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde... whichever decides to show up.

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This statement seems especially true
Truth be told, this is probably the most unpredictable team put forth in Lions history.

Especially at Defensive Tackle, since there’s a total scheme change, everybody’s bulking up, and we don’t know for sure what the depth chart looks like, or how many guys are going to make it into the regular rotation.

Can Jackson be an immovable rock 20 downs a game…or more like 5 or 6?

Is Fluellen another failed third-round Millen pick, or can he be a good DT with coaches who know what they’re doing as far as scheme and player conditioning go?

Who wins in a fight…Sammie Hill’s exceptional size and athleticism…or Sammie Hill’s troublesome lack of high-level coaching and competition in college?

What about Cohen and Harris? Any chance they’ll beat the odds and crack the regular rotation?

What about IAF? With everybody adding weight, any chance he’ll rotate into the DT rotation, especially if DeVries, White, and Avril get most of the snaps at DE?

What about Darby? He’s certainly not great and not young…but if he’s playing far fewer snaps because we have a rotation of young guys who can get the job done, maybe he can make up for his deficiencies by the coaches keeping his legs fresh.

If we have five or six guys who are all almost good enough to be “mediocre” starters, but each one is a little bit too old, too young, too small, too raw, or too tampa two, maybe we can make up for quality with quantity…more guys playing fewer snaps each means everybody has just a little bit more burst & energy down the stretch.

What do you guys think…any hope we’ll be able to be average at DT this year, even if no individual guy on our roster is above-average?

by n4ry4 on Jul 24, 2009 4:47 PM EDT reply actions  

I want to say yes.

But our DT’s are exactly what you just said. I being a optimistic fan say yes they can be good enough to be the stop gap that we need THIS year. Me being a true lions fan say’s no chance in hell(o), we are still 2 years away on he D-side of the ball. We need 2 more good-great drafts with the drafting on the heavy side of the D-side. I like most if not all of us love what Swartz has done so far, but I still wish we would of traded down a few times to add alot of talent alla Jimmy Johnson. When you have to rebuild a team at virtually every position, thats the avenue we should of took.

by davis0169 on Jul 24, 2009 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think we will be avg this year

because if nothing else we are a deeper team this year on both sides of the ball. More on the O-line for sure, but we’ve got some guys who can at least play on DL.

In past years it’s been so apparent that when the starter went down to injury, the play on the field quickly became dismal. With the elite teams in the NFL, that just doesn’t happen.

As said by others, we will have to keep drafting well to sustain that depth, but I think we’ve got a start here…

I also think our LB’s and blitzing mentality will take a lot of the pressure off of the DT’s to be great every down.

by Brefstink on Jul 24, 2009 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, the young guys...

with the exception of Hill have been through training camp and one regular season before… that’s got to count for something. Problem is, it was in a different system. All-in-all, it’ll be about translation. How well will Cohen, Fluellen, Alama-Francis, Avril… all those guys; how well do they translate to the type of defense Cunningham and Schwartz want to run. No doubt, it’s a huge question mark. Like I said… boom or bust.

by DrewsLions on Jul 25, 2009 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

You should have sat on this one for about 2 more weeks

I cannot wait to see this team on the field. Win or lose I am looking for small victories every game. My expectations have become quite cloudy as of late but I saw what happened last year and will be looking for similar patterns in this team. When the improvement starts I believe it will be blatantly obvious to us who know this team and thier past. We will see a 28-17 loss in week one vs the saints and while ESPN and Clayton make thier dumb little comments about how little things have changed we will see that the Lions stopped them 5 times on 3rd down and forced 2 turnovers. Big step up … Look out Vikings! … you will not escape week 2 with back to back victories. After 2 weeks the central division will be a quick 4-way tie at 1 & 1 and then the real season will start. LETS GO LIONS!!!!!!!!

good post Drew … you nailed it!

by IowaLion on Jul 24, 2009 4:49 PM EDT reply actions  

dammit ... been watching baseball this afternoon

the NFC North will be tied. I wish we could edit these.

by IowaLion on Jul 24, 2009 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good post Drew

I agree with everything you said…..and especially liked that I was mentioned in your post….LOL!

“I know most will be shocked to hear me utter these words (especially you, KDawg), but I think the top end of this best case scenario can only be reached by playing Culpepper.”

“I’m talking about the best case scenario for this year… "

That is exactly what I have been saying all along. I know that Culpepper is not the long term solution, and I agree that not only could it be beneficial for Stafford to start immediately, but also beneficial for the team in the long run…..IF he is ready and IF he is at or above Culpepper’s level. I also agree that Matt Stafford is likely not at the same level of Culpepper in terms of the leadership of an NFL team, as that is something that comes along with time and experience.

That said, I am a fan that wants the team to show everyone that they want to win NOW. I want them to show that they are not going to take losing lightly, and I want to see that every single player on the team is giving every ounce of effort they possibly can, week in and week out. I don’t want to see the “We are rebuilding” mentality, where it is acceptable to lose and chalk up losses to rebuilding. I want to see the “We are going to win” mentality, and we are going to show everyone in the league that the Detroit Lions are not a joke or an extra bye week when opposing teams match up against us. I want to see the “That is OUR ball” mentality and the “You’re in MY house” mentality. I believe in my heart that Daunte Culpepper will be the man to lead us this year, and I also believe he gives us the best chance at winning NOW, rather than floundering through another season and chalking it up to the rebuilding process. Christ……how long does it take to rebuild a football team?? How many years have we already been rebuilding? Sooner or later that excuse gets stale….and I for one have been over it for years now.

by KDawg on Jul 24, 2009 5:27 PM EDT reply actions  

Thanks, KDawg

The problem with the “rebuild” thing is that after an 0-16 season, it really is a rebuild year. I know.. we’ve been in a perpetual rebuild for decades, it seems. Sick of it or not, we have to admit we are rebuilding again and it’s gonna take some time to get where we are going.

That’s where my point of sacrificing a win or two this year for the greater good of the future of this team comes into play… a.k.a. Stafford’s progression. If you told me with Stafford we would win 4 games and with Culpepper we would win 6 games… I would play Stafford to give him experience. Now, if I thought Culpepper was capable of winning 9 games versus Stafford’s 4-6 wins… that’s another story. The problem is, I don’t really see either guy being able to chalk up 9 wins with this team. So… that’s my Stafford reasoning. But in the end, I can somewhat understand your chant for Culpepper. I just don’t think he is capable of taking this team much farther than Stafford.

by DrewsLions on Jul 25, 2009 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

Point taken

With all of that said, I think the Lions should start Culpepper at the beginning of the year and see what he can do. If he is 2-4 at the bye week, then maybe they bring on Stafford. If Culpepper has a winning record at the bye week (week 7 right?) then I think the Lions should stick with him. If they take the Titan’s philosophy, they will go with Culpepper until he is losing.

by KDawg on Jul 25, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

It still comes down to...

…coaching! And for once in my life as a Detroit Lion fan, we have a head coach I believe in. He’s smart, analytical, articulate, pedigreed, and yet still approachable to the avg blue collar guy like me. I think he has a long term plan to turn this team into a perennially competitive team. He’s made a great start, but needs another year or two to finish the plan.

As for this year specifically, I have hope because I think the defense will cause more turnovers – that alone can win games. Witness our hot start just two long seasons ago…(seems like forever I know). We’ll be blitzing like crazy, and Delmas will be flying around like a missile – sure to knock some balls loose.

The offense, despite the shaky line, will be adequate enough to score some points if our defense can keep it close. And Schwartz will showcase a power running game, that in itself is simpler and more efficient. I agree that Dante should start, and let his experience guide us, until we are confident that the team is ready for Stafford. I have confidence that Stafford is the future and will be great. And we do need to get him some touches…but let Dante lead us out to begin the season.

The only thing that concerns me for the future is the scout from Jax being brought onboard, as I never liked their drafts…but maybe those werent his calls. We’ll see.
Hopefully, Schwartz gets his say…

by Brefstink on Jul 24, 2009 5:29 PM EDT reply actions  

Don't take this the wrong way Bref.

I want to beleave that we finally hit the nail on the head with Swartz, but then the bad lion fan comes out and has to question that hire, allow me to explain. i have been a lions fan since the Monty Clark era; or Billy Sims era if you wish. Since that time I have watched first time coaches come and go with no real success, hell since that time I can only name 2 coaches that had ANY head coach exp and those would be Bobby Ross( who ran Barry outta town) and Mooch who never really had a chance here. If you want to add Dick Jarron to that list being he was technically our coach for a min then 3. But why can’t we ever get a Parcell or Cower kind of guy in here? Why is it that every head coach who comes here seems to be getting their promotion from cordinator(if we are lucky) to head coach. It just doesn’t make any sene to me.Hell I’m guy that would of opened up both arms and let a true head coach have my girlfriend at anytime he wished if he would come here. I would of loved if Marty Shotenhiemer would of came here, he might not be able to get us to the superbowl but he at least knows how to build a winning team.

by davis0169 on Jul 24, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I dont blame you

There are a million reasons why Scwartz may fail like those before him, but I dont think he will.

First, he has a long track record at Tenn as Def Coor, but I saw him as Asst Head Coach. His long tenure there means he’s ready for the next step.

Second, despite his good amount of experience, he’s still relatively young. He wont be stuck in his ways or loathe to adapt to the ever – changing NFL like an older guy such as Schotty might.
He appears tough like the Jarhead Marinelli, but reasonable enough to relate to his players.
And he is analytical – he knows that his players are 21% stronger than last season. I doubt Marinelli ever even tested his players, instead just spewing some drill sgt routine at them trying to inspire them to get stronger. That shit doesn’t work. You must teach your players, tell them what you expect, and then hold them accountable. I see Schwartz doing exactly that.

Third and finally, Schwartz seems to have a plan, and a front office that is working to help him execute it. That may be most important of all – Witness someone like Parcells who has a vision and plan, and makes it happen. Schwartz is no Tuna yet, but he’s gonna be someday.

by Brefstink on Jul 24, 2009 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Now on too you Drew!

Drew I think you hit this one outta the ball park with every bit of this thread. I like evryone of your posts that I have read, now comes the fun bro; I think you should be the Cardinal of our little congregation of silliness here. I gladdly step down from that position as o now, I’ll take on the name of Alter boy just because I am too silly to be a cardinal and alter(ego) boy fits my personality more anyways. I also think that Culpepper is our best chance to win now, not saying that that is the right thing too do but if Dr. Pepper can relive the Viking years with Megatron then you are right the sky is the limit. So with all of that said allow me to say good post Cardinal.

by davis0169 on Jul 24, 2009 6:20 PM EDT reply actions  

Cardinal of Silliness

Yeah, you should be, davis. You can’t type, you can’t spell, and you probably can’t talk. On to the Lions. Brefstink, good job looking at the big picture. Earlier posters were concerned about DT. Drop the magnifying glass. It boils down to nothing. Here’s what it is. Front office, Experienced Coaching, (Parcells and Cower are not available, and Marty Schottenheimer was available one day after Wayne Fontes was hired, so davis, you’re stuck with your girlfriend.) Personell through the draft and free agency follows naturally. Team leadership and chemistry rank right up there. (Foote and Peterson on defense, Kevin Smith and Riola on offense) I’ve been a lions fan for almost 50 years, and there were some seasons they were fun to watch. Look at the NFC North. Minnesota is a SB favorite, but last year’s pitiful lions team woulda, shoulda, coulda beat them twice. Does anyone think, even in Minn. that this is 2 bye weeks? Also, if not for Shitna, the lions would have split with GB. And the Bears have almost as many unanswered questions as the Lions. No Super Bowl this year for us, and probably no playoffs. But they will beat some teams, and maybe pull a few surprises. Too bad they don’t play Dallas this year, or the Giants. I hate those teams.

by dylan415 on Jul 24, 2009 6:46 PM EDT reply actions  

Great post Drew

One of your best. I’m on the samewave length, I believe in the possibility of playoffs but also am afraid of a repeat of last season. My general thoughts on the subject generally fall in or around the 5-6 win mark. I think we’ll be a lot more competitive this year, which will net us victories. But like you said, I think there will be a fair amount of frustration as well. Once again, great post.

2009 = The start of the Lions Golden Age (We hope).

by Hyperion Ecta on Jul 24, 2009 9:10 PM EDT reply actions  

You nailed it Drew...

Not much I could add. But I am not looking at this year in terms of wins and loses. But in growth of the young players. Finally some good coaching.

by JCruize on Jul 24, 2009 9:54 PM EDT reply actions  

We should be better than last year

The outlook I have for this years Lion’s team is realistic. Would I like to see them make the playoffs and do great? Absolutely. Will it happen? Probably not. Although I will say we should have not been an 0-16 team last year, there were at least 7 games in my memory that could have went either way. I think with the improvements to the Linebacker corps and the addition of Jansen on the offensive line to add veteran leadership, Detroit could be a dangerous team that others don’t want to play. Now does this mean that we are going to win the Division or Wild Card? No. I am looking at probably a 6-7 win team with a core group to come back the next year and improve on that. I think that Culpepper should start this year and not rush Stafford into a position he is not ready for to make him the next Matt Ryan. I have to admit I was not happy when they drafted him as I think we should have addressed Offensive line but I am coming around to it now. I am still baffled at the Brandon Pettigrew pick though. If it works then I guess they are geniuses Sp?

"Sometimes life deals you lemons, I say make lemonade with them."

by CPLkilla13 on Jul 24, 2009 10:08 PM EDT reply actions  

It can't get any worse

But I still think they are going to have some struggles. They have more talent than last year but I think they will still have trouble getting adjusted to another scheme. As far as your comment about the linebacker corps, they will definitely be better than Paris lennon and co. but I feel like they will need time until they are able to have some chemistry with each other. A good linebacker unit is still better than 3 good linebackers. I think Foote and Sims are nice complements to each other but Peterson leaves a little doubt in my mind. Your 6-7 wins seems like their cieling to me I’m looking at something like 3-5.

http://detroithustle.wordpress.com/

by jehu22 on Jul 25, 2009 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

Good point

I still think that the 6-7 wins isn’t the ceiling though because there were a lot of games that they could have won last year with the team that they had.

"Sometimes life deals you lemons, I say make lemonade with them."

by CPLkilla13 on Jul 25, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

? Delmas one of the best on the team?
First, a catastrophic injury to someone like Calvin Johnson, Kevin Smith, Julian Peterson, Larry Foote, Louis Delmas or one of the quarterbacks without the other being able to match great play, would likely end any bid to reach our peak potential.

I know he’s looked good in OTAs, but he’s a rookie man, and you haven’t even had training camp yet!

For all we know he might be turrible in pads or hit a rookie wall

If you want to crown em...

by JohnnyTruant on Jul 26, 2009 8:26 PM EDT reply actions  

Well, put it into context...

Delmas is going to start… I think that’s a given. But if he’s out due to injury, who will replace him? Most likely Manuel or Pearson. Is that an upgrade? I hardly think so. I think the unknown of Delmas’ potential is worth more than the known, subpar abilities of either Manuel or Pearson. Also, put it into the context of the entire post… In a nutshell, I stated: in order to reach our peak potential, Delmas needs to be an animal. If he’s an animal and he gets injured… big loss, right? Follow the logic?

If Delmas gets hurt, we are left with little hope at safety. It will also set him back for next year. It would be a setback if he got injured. Not sure you can disagree with that.

by DrewsLions on Jul 27, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Best case worst case = Basket Case

I have to say that I have almost exactly the same Feelings about the whole thing.
The only thing’s that I am hoping is that Neither of the QB’s get hurt (and I know that you don’t want that either).
But then when it comes to the LBers I am hoping that Levy and Follett Are better than everyone expects and Can fill those positions if anything happens to our studs.Gunther had a way of calming me down when he talked about Levy being a natural at the MLBer position.And after watching follett’s video’s realizing that it still was college it still calmed me to see his energy.

by 4thand2 on Jul 27, 2009 12:50 AM EDT reply actions  

Raiola being undersized for a center......Yes and No.

I went through NFL.com and totalled up all the starting NFL centers plus one [Tom Nalen of Denver] and calculated their average weight as 303.5 pounds. Raiola is listed as 295 pounds.

Here are some of the Centers who are lighter or the same weight as Raiola;
Kevin Mawae 289, Tom Nalen 286, Olin Kreutz 292, Jeff Saturday 295, Nick Hardwick 295. The first three guys are, or were perennial Pro Bowlers, at least five appearances each. The next two guys have been to the Pro Bowl and are recognized as solid anchors for their offensive lines.

Drew, I appreciate that you were overall very positive about Raiola and recognize him as a positive contributor to the team. I also recognize Raiola’s limitations, but I think the DTs that you are talking about are a handful for any Center in the league. Those DTs are guys like Haynesworth, Shaun Rogers, Casey Hampton, Kris Jenkins, Haloti Ngata, Vince Wilfork, and The Williamses though they are not listed as that big [311 and 317].
Unfortunately, we play all of those guys but Jenkins and Wilfork in 2009.

I overall agree with your post, although if you remember far enough back into 2008 a high number of Lions fans were deluded by the 2007 7 and 9 record and the unbeaten preseason to expect a playoff run. I am looking for a greatly improved performance on the field in 2009, whether that equates to wins is a whole ’nother matter.

by NorthLeft12 on Jul 27, 2009 9:53 AM EDT reply actions  

Good questions, Why don't you look them up?

Reach is not important for Centers. For the Tackles, especially the Left, it is very important. The NFL will move short armed Tackles into the interior.

I am just tired of reading posts which assert facts which they don’t know. Do some research.

by NorthLeft12 on Jul 27, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just as much as I am tired of reading posts by you

where you think you know better than every expert analyst in the NFL. When is the last time you heard an expert analyst say that Raiola was the perfect size for the center position in the NFL? I have never once heard anything other than him being undersized (unless you count Tom Kowalski as a reliable source). Also, I call a big BS that a center’s reach is not important. Every down lineman in football has to be able to create separation, and when a lineman has a reach disadvantage, they struggle to create separation. Do I think that Raiola is the worst center in the NFL? No, I do not. Do I see him as better than average, no I do not.

Posts that assert facts which they don’t know? I’d like to know where your assertion that weight is the only significant factor when it comes to the size of an NFL center. Another significant stat to any player on the line of scrimmage (besides height, weight, and reach) is hand size. How big are Raiola’s hands? It makes a difference.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ys-heightvsarmlength031209&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

I will concede to the fact that reach is most important to offensive tackles, but that does not mean that it is not important for interior linemen either. The fact of the matter is that Dominic Raiola has consistently struggled against the bigger DTs in the league. He gets pushed around and does not create separation. He struggles to create space and reach the second level. He is not a great run blocker or pass blocker. He is just average. We’ve heard a lot of BS about how good he is, and we even watched the Lions extend his contract, but how many times has he been in the pro-bowl? How many times has he been 1st team all pro? ZERO. Why is it that all of the other centers you gave for comparison (of comparable weight) have been to at least 1 pro bowl?

I think Drew was quite clear and concise about his opinion on Raiola, and I agree with him.

Raiola is feisty and probably an above average center for the most part. Regardless of what a lot of fans think about him, he is an asset to the team both on the field and in the locker room. If more players had his attitude, we would win more games. That said, Raiola will always struggle with the bigger defensive tackles in this league. He’s just a tad too small and will always have that work against him. In the end though, if Cherilus, Loper and Peterman show tremendous strides, especially in the run game, we will have ourselves a pretty good line. So contrary to many opinions I’ve read here, this could be the first time in many years where our line is an asset versus a liability.

If the entire UNIT plays well, then Raiola will be sufficient, as he is at least an average center. However, if Cherilus, Loper, Peterman, Backus, and anyone else who might end up playing on the line, are not making strides and playing above average, Raiola will also continue to struggle because he does not possess the dominant size (including weight, reach, and hand size) or strength needed to excel regardless of the mitigating circumstances that surround him. Of the centers you listed in comparison, Mawae is surrounded by a great line in Tenn and he is 3 inches taller than Raiola, Nalen is a member of the best offensive line in football today and is 2 inches taller than Raiola, Kreutz is an inch taller, a 6 time pro bowler, and was 1st team all pro in 2006, plus he is surrounded by an above average offensive line, Saturday is an inch taller and is a member of one of the best offensive lines in the NFL, Hardwick is 3 inches taller and part of a good offensive line as well. All of these guys are of a caliber above Raiola, and they are not even comparable in my opinion. They all possess size (not weight, but height, and likely reach and maybe even hand size) and strength (if not speed as well) that are above and beyond Raiola’s.

Unfortunately, if there is a database that holds reach and hand size metrics for NFL linemen, I can not find it. Otherwise I am sure we would find that these guys also have the advantage in those categories. If the comments you made stating “I am just tired of reading posts which assert facts which they don’t know. Do some research.” were directed at my questions following your comment, then maybe you should examine what assertions you are making and dig a little deeper in your own research. Even if you intended the comments to be general, they come off as hypocritical.

by KDawg on Jul 27, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Once again you assume 'facts' that you don't know to back up your opinion.

I did not say Raiola was the perfect size. He is slighlty underweight [say eight pounds] and possibly an inch shorter [I did not check but will concede at 6’ 1" he may be shorter than most Centers]. By pointing out those five other Centers I am trying to balance the constant whining about Raiola. I am trying to put in perspective what his differences are from the other successful Centers. They are not very big in my mind. I see a lot of posts and talk about the Lions getting bigger and stronger, especially on the lines. But there is still a place for athleticism and technique over pure size and bulk. Also, as you pointed out, teamwork is critical to the success of the offensive line. I agree.

Not sure why you choose to dump on Raiola as he is most likely our most accomplished lineman. The Lions organization, old and new, apparently think so. As do most of the NFL articles that I have run across that mention the Center position. I am not saying they think he is great, but that he is above average and not a problem area.

by NorthLeft12 on Jul 27, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

And I wasn't dumping on Raiola....

I was simply pointing out that he is undersized and only average.

by KDawg on Jul 27, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

See below from your post.
They all possess size (not weight, but height, and likely reach and maybe even hand size) and strength (if not speed as well) that are above and beyond Raiola’s.

You don’t know these things for sure but you assume they are true to justify why Raiola is not comparable. Why not say their technique is better too?

And Nalen did not play in 2008. He was injured and ended up retiring. I cheated a bit using him as I ran across his stats and knew what an outstanding Center he was. I did say in my original post that the average of the NFL starters plus one {Nalen].

by NorthLeft12 on Jul 27, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Again.....key words

“likely” and “maybe” are terms that mean I am clearly making an assumption. At no point did I say IT IS A FACT. I based my statement on opinion and the obvious performance differences between the mentioned linemen and Raiola. The fact that these guys are around the same weight as Raiola, coupled with the facts that they are considered anchors of their lines and have made the pro bowl, if not 1st team all pro, pretty much guarantees that they are stronger, have better technique, or better reach if not all of those things. My assumptions are no worse than yours, and I have every right to make them.

Who cares if Nalen played last year or not…..if he had, he would have been far superior to Raiola. I agree that Raiola is athletic and has been quite durable. However, you have no basis to call it a fact that he is a good center, technically or otherwise. He doesn’t even compare to our LAST 2nd round pick at Center. Remember him? His name was Kevin Glover. We also drafted another guy in the same draft as Glover. His name was Lomas Brown. Can you even begin to tell me that you feel that Backus and Raiola invoke the same sort of feelings of consistency and security on our offensive line as Glover and Brown?

Glover wasn’t all world at Center either, but at least he didn’t get shoved around and he got the job done. Glover spent 10 years with the Lions before he made 3 straight pro bowls at the ages of 32, 33, 34 from 1995-1997. We all know what Lomas Brown did for us year after year after year (7 straight pro bowls from 1990-1996, 1st team all pro 1995). So if Raiola is even comparible to a guy like Kevin Glover, he should make the pro bowl in the last 2 years of his current contract. Just because Backus and Raiola are stable and durable does not mean that their longevity makes them good at what they do. In fact, it makes the Lions Organization look bad (in my opinion) for not replacing them sooner (doesn’t that sound familiar Matt Millen??).

by KDawg on Jul 27, 2009 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m pretty sure Mr. KDawg knows what it takes to be a successful lineman.

Prohibition never changes the demand, it only changes the supplier.
-Barry Cooper

by BIGWalt2990 on Jul 27, 2009 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just my opinion

I call em like I see em…..I’m not an expert, but I was an offensive lineman and I do take exceptional care to watch them play.

by KDawg on Jul 27, 2009 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am starting to agree with you KDawg

About Backus and Raiola. Particularly Backus. I have always thought Backus got a raw deal. Especially when it came to fans respect. I always gave Backus benefit of the doubt. With all the HC changes. Different OC’s. Poor QB play. But now, maybe Backus was just playing on the wrong side of the line. And Raiola, I think fits somewhere in the middle of the pack, as far as centers.

by JCruize on Jul 27, 2009 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

What does Kevin Glover have to do with Raiola? By the way Glover was 6'2" and 280 pounds. No data on his ring finger size.

Why did you bring Lomas Brown and Backus into the discussion?
I never said that Raiola was as good as Glover. Although he might be. We will never know because they played at different times. It would have been interesting to see how Barry Sanders would have done behind Raiola and Backus.
You say that Raiola gets “shoved around” and imply that he does not do the job. The Lions management, past and present, seem to disagree. I think I will go with their judgement over yours.

You seem to have a mad on for Raiola and are using him as a whipping boy for the failures of the O Line. Again, I am looking at the opinions of others:

“If you talk about the great centers, probably in the history of the National Football League,” Schwartz said, “I think they’d all have in common: leverage, feet, balance, quickness. Dom has all of those.”

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4287046

Here is some data from 2001, his draft stats;

ESPN Combine Results10yd – 1.68
20yd – 2.87 40yd – 5.09
Reps – 29 VertJump – 33
BJ – 9.0 Shuttle,20 – 4.35
Shuttle,60 – DNP Cone – 7.55

http://nflhuskers.com/draft/2001raiola.html

I could throw other opinions up here but that’s what they are, opinions. But the consensus is that Raiola is an average center. Can we agree on that? We have bigger problems on the O LIne which are beginning to be addressed [Loper, Jansen, Salaam, and possibly Murtha are some help] but are far from being resolved.

And a last note, longevity is an indicator of competence. It does not mean a guy is elite, it just means that he can perform the job. Guys that show up week in and week out and do the job competently have value, even if they are not dominating.

by NorthLeft12 on Jul 28, 2009 7:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

No, here we dot not agree.

“You say that Raiola gets "shoved around" and imply that he does not do the job. The Lions management, past and present, seem to disagree. I think I will go with their judgement over yours.”

The same management got us to 0-16 last year. Warning – Do NOT go to the Horse Track.

"If you talk about the great centers, probably in the history of the National Football League," Schwartz said, "I think they’d all have in common: leverage, feet, balance, quickness. Dom has all of those."

You will note that he never said that he employs them effectively.

" But the consensus is that Raiola is an average center. Can we agree on that? "

Absolutely not. You are both too kind. He’s bottom 5, end of story.

“And a last note, longevity is an indicator of competence.”

Again, nothing could be further from the truth. The front office has simply not made it a priority to replace him via the draft or free agency. Again, the same front office that brought us to 0-16. In this instance, the fact he is still here, and still so well paid, is an idictment upon the competence of the whole organization.

Thank you.

by TCLion on Jul 28, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Bottom 5?

TC… Your opinions are mattering less and less to me when you state things like that. He’d be out of Detroit this year if he was a bottom 5 starter. He got a 5 year extension instead. I don’t think he’s as bad as you think if he’s getting that money. I’m going to go back and watch a few games on him specifically when I get some free time. I’ve watched him exclusively before and that’s where I came up with my assessment as an above average center.

That’s not saying I’m a scout or great judge of talent or even know what he’s supposed to do on each play. But I can tell when he get’s beat and when he’s not playing hard. I didn’t see a ton of that. I’ll watch again, though.

by DrewsLions on Jul 28, 2009 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have to agree with NorthLeft on this one.........
Here are some of the Centers who are lighter or the same weight as Raiola;
Kevin Mawae 289, Tom Nalen 286, Olin Kreutz 292, Jeff Saturday 295, Nick Hardwick 295. blockquote>

The first three guys are, or were perennial Pro Bowlers, at least five appearances each. The next two guys have been to the Pro Bowl and are recognized as solid anchors for their offensive lines.<

Raiola – Number of Pro Bowls – 0 for 9. Winner of the Wet Paper Bag award for his 3rd and short blocking.

I agree with the evidence presented. Raiola is not undersized by NFL standards, which makes his appalling and atrocious level of play even more inexcusable.

Drew, I appreciate that you were overall very positive about Raiola and recognize him as a positive contributor to the team.


Seriously, are you his agent on here in disguise?

Thank you.

by TCLion on Jul 28, 2009 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Winning season? optimism indeed

nice breakdown, Drew.

My own opinion, based on nothing more than being a Lions fan (with all the cynicism and pessimism that entails), is that the realistic range of Lions victories this year goes from 1-6, with my expected record falling at 4-12. The last time I looked at the schedule, I saw 5 potential wins, and I got to my final number figuring the Lions would find a way to blow two of those, and steal back an unexpected W (probably against the Vikings, as Favre decrepitates over the course of the season).

Depends on qb play, obviously, as has been pointed out ad nauseum, as we don’t really know which Culpepper will show up for duty, the fumble monster, or the guy who has enough agility and gets enough time from the offensive line to launch bombs for Randy Moss Calvin Johnson to pluck out of mid-air. For all the hype and all the stories, no one knows yet what Stafford will bring to the field as a starter in the NFL.

It’s all too easy, as a Lions fan, to give in to the doomsday scenario, but I don’t think even the most depressed among us plausibly predicted the debacle that was the 2008 season. You’ll notice that I didn’t include 0-16 as a possible outcome for this season. I don’t really think that 1-15 is a likely outcome, either, but being a fan of this franchise does take a toll on the optimism thing.

That’s why I can’t stand behind a potential wining season, even as the mind races over the Miami Dolphins making the leap from 1 Cleo Lemon miracle and 15 losses to 11-5 and the playoffs in just one year, or the St, Louis Rams vaulting from worst to greatest show on turf behind a backup qb a decade ago.

But if it were to come to pass…

Official BYB Juju Consultant...now accepting rally creature applications!

by ahtrap on Jul 27, 2009 9:53 AM EDT reply actions  

ahtrap...

I’m not predicting a winning season here. Not sure how you got that from the post above. For the record, I’ve said that I expect a 5-11 record this year. Obviously I hope for more , but I am actually braced for less. The post above was in reference to the unknowns of this team and how that’s created a situation of unpredictability with respect to the outcome. Thought I made that clear.

by DrewsLions on Jul 27, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Didn't mean to imply in any way that that was your own position/prediction

But you did say that if all the stars align, it could be a possibility. I was just thinking out loud that anyone who thinks that has plenty of optimism to go around.

in this case, the header is divorced from the rest of the post; else I wouldn’t have led the body with “nice breakdown”….

Official BYB Juju Consultant...now accepting rally creature applications!

by ahtrap on Jul 28, 2009 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

50 votes, and the consensus is 50/50

Prohibition never changes the demand, it only changes the supplier.
-Barry Cooper

by BIGWalt2990 on Jul 27, 2009 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

It was more for entertainment value than anything

When I last looked, the vote was more in favor of Culpepper.

by KDawg on Jul 27, 2009 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm still torn on the subject

I take Shelton’s point but I still can’t see a true, right way of developing a QB. Let’s be honest, there’s been examples of busts and booms from both sides of thinking. As far as I’m concerned, if you’re good enough to play in the NFL, you will make it regardless. So, if Stafford can prove wholeheartedly that he is ready and better than Culpepper, than we should start him. If not, he sits. Doesn’t seem that hard to me.

Note- Shelton brought up the point that Staff’s a junior and that Ryan and Flacco were seniors and that means they were more mentally prepared for the NFL. But if I remember correctly, didn’t Stafford start just as many games as Ryan, effectively having as much game experience as him. To me, that arguement doesn’t hold a hell of a lot of weight in this case. Maybe someone could confirm that?

2009 = The start of the Lions Golden Age (We hope).

by Hyperion Ecta on Jul 27, 2009 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol

That is the consensus conclusion that we reached from the long winded argument. I was just seeing if our friend Drew would have something funny to say.

by KDawg on Jul 27, 2009 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

By the way HE

You are correct…..Matt Stafford and Matt Ryan both started in 36 games in college with their respective teams. I have left a comment for Mr. Shelton, stating this fact and asking what other difference it makes, being a Junior vs a Senior, when they played the same number of games in college. We’ll see if he responds.

by KDawg on Jul 27, 2009 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Way less

http://cmufootball.blogspot.com/

by CapitolLions on Jul 28, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sanchez started like 16 games.

With a superb team around him. Yet half of America would probably vote him ahead of Stafford. I don’t get it. It must be the “USC” tag.

Prohibition never changes the demand, it only changes the supplier.
-Barry Cooper

by BIGWalt2990 on Jul 28, 2009 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here was my question and Shelton's response

Question:
Hey Keith,
There is a valid argument that has been made, and I would like to hear your thoughts on it please. Matt Stafford was a Junior when he entered the NFL draft, while Matt Ryan was in fact a senior. The problem with that argument is that Matt Ryan only started 36 games in 4 years at Boston College and Matt Stafford started 36 games in 3 years at Georgia. I am of the same opinion as you, as I feel that Stafford needs to sit this year, but what other difference does being a Junior over a Senior make when they played the same number of games?

Answer:
maturity and understanding of the game. Although they started the same number of games, Ryan was still there for 4 years as opposed to 3 for Stafford. Ryan was more prepared mentally than Stafford is. Just my opinion. I’ve heard Stafford called ahead of the curve and mature, but I still think Ryan and Flacco had the advantage of 4 years of college even if they didn’t start as freshmen.

by KDawg on Jul 27, 2009 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I really dont understand that answer..

You have Stafford. Who was mature( in football sense) to start as a freshman at Geogia. Play at a high level in the very strong SEC. While Flacco played at Delaware. And Ryan in the Big East at BC. As far as the three goes. Who do you think had more pressure on them to perform? How many freshman QB’s have started in major conferences. That just could not handle the pressure of playing at that level. I know he is a couple of years younger. Than Ryan and Flacco. But they were never put under a microscope from game to game as much Stafford was playing at Georgia. You cant always judge how mature someone is by age. But Stafford had a bad game against Florida. His worst of the season. He was criticized. Georgia fans booed him. I have a friend who is from Georgia and was at the game. But he did not let that bother him. He finished the season strong. With a great game against GT. That to me shows his maturity. I have no doubts about is mental make-up. And I believe that Detroit has finally found their QB.

by JCruize on Jul 28, 2009 2:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't agree with sitting him

I am a firm believer in the peyton approach over the palmer approach. both CAN work, but i say, get hit, throw picks, throw TDs, win and lose…but learn.

http://cmufootball.blogspot.com/

by CapitolLions on Jul 28, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I think I've read this crap before

Same ol’ same old. Another journalist with nothing new to bring to the argument.

by DrewsLions on Jul 28, 2009 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

and I want to pass this along to my Pride.

Posted on July 16, the questioning seems like the video was taken recently. If this is a re-post, my bad. New Stafford interview

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7usYx0yzBU8

Prohibition never changes the demand, it only changes the supplier.
-Barry Cooper

by BIGWalt2990 on Jul 27, 2009 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Seems like the standard responses

I wish just once that a rookie would say “Yep, I’m gonna beat so and so out….it’s pretty much a done deal. I am the man”. lol

by KDawg on Jul 27, 2009 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I thought it was neat that he dreamed of being a #1 pick, and sees himself as a “piece of the puzzle” not a savior. Also his number 1 challenge used to be learning the playbook(in older interviews). Now the challenge is keeping up with the grind of the schedule. That tells me that he’s got the playbook 100% down.

Prohibition never changes the demand, it only changes the supplier.
-Barry Cooper

by BIGWalt2990 on Jul 27, 2009 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol

I dreamed of being the number 1 pick too, once upon a time. What kind of message would he be sending if he was cocky and said “Yeah, I am the savior of the Lions. Without me they would be 0-16 again”. As far as learning the playbook goes, if he has it down 100% that is great. Being as smart as they say he is, however, I do not find it surprising. Everything he said seemed like a scripted response if you ask me. Not that I don’t like the kid, and not that I don’t hope that he is the next Elway, Peyton Manning, or even Aikman, but I really don’t get much of a read on the kid from his interviews.

by KDawg on Jul 27, 2009 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great article

Once again proving that there is no right way to develop a QB. Let’s hope Stafford joins that elite group of QB’s, no matter which option is taken.

2009 = The start of the Lions Golden Age (We hope).

by Hyperion Ecta on Jul 27, 2009 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Excellent post Drew

Thanks for taking the time. Pleasant read.

Thank you.

by TCLion on Jul 28, 2009 11:14 AM EDT reply actions  

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