Next Season - Linebackers/DL
by Preseason Champs on Jan 1, 2010 6:09 PM EST
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PrintIve noticed a lot of talk recently about what to do next season with our "over stocked" linebacking corps. I don't believe its overstocked, I believe it is perfect for depth purposes. I am glad to see DeAndre Levy turning into a solid starting linebacker. My question is, are any of our linebackers capable of playing defensive end? We need help on the d-line and instead of either trading ernie sims or letting larry foote go, could we just have one of the 4 main linebackers make a transistion to defensive end. I know there are the certain "hybrid" players (typically in a 3-4) that play both linebacker/DE (harrison,orakpo,ware)....I don't neccessarily support this idea, just a thought
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None of the LBs.....
……on the current roster could play DE…..They are all smaller then Avril and he is to small to plau DE…..Avril will more then likely traded if we can get a good pick….So to answer you question no not one guy could play DE.
I don't see the move to DE happening for any LBer.
I see the “overstock” as a good thing. When is the last time we had good depth at any position.
agreed
I believe we should keep all 4 of them…especially with how versatile Levy is
by Preseason Champs on Jan 1, 2010 8:38 PM EST up reply actions
I would love to keep all 4 as well
I think Sims is a player. Still think he can reproduce a 2007-type season. Dizon?? Not sure but don’t see any real value there.
I spray paint my dog Honolulu Blue and Silver
Pic - me in one of my LIONS shirts
I haven't said much about this subject yet
But my thought on it is that while I know depth is new to people, that doesn’t mean you trade away players at the first sight of a potential starter like Levy. Yes, every extra pick can help, but I’d rather keep Sims for now and continue to let Levy develop. Plus, if there is an injury, it’s nice to have someone like Levy who can step in as a starter.
Pride of Detroit, SB Nation's Lions Blog
Agreed
2nd rounder at the minimum
I spray paint my dog Honolulu Blue and Silver
Pic - me in one of my LIONS shirts
That's what I've been saying
2009 = The start of the Lions Golden Age (We hope).
Zack Follett: he will hurt your mind.
by Hyperion Ecta on Jan 2, 2010 3:29 AM EST up reply actions
hahaha
or what will more than likely be sims stepping in for levy…cunningham has said levy is starting next year
by Preseason Champs on Jan 1, 2010 9:44 PM EST reply actions
I may be in the minority but..
I actually think that our defensive ends are pretty decent, Avril, Hunter, Devries, and McBride isn’t a terrible rotation…they get pressure but we do need one more good DT for the line to really click, Suh is perfect if not maybe we can get Marvin Austin later on. I was in favor of trading Sims for Dorsey and a pick but now I believe that the man that may be traded is Julian Peterson because of his contract and age, I have nothing against Peterson as my 2nd team is the Niners and have liked him from his days there, and I actually think he has been very solid this year, I just see it as being something Mayhew might try do.
Avril and Hunter have been decent
Even McBride has played ok at times…but I do believe we need to get ourselves some fresh DE talent. Somewhere in the first 4 rounds.
2009 = The start of the Lions Golden Age (We hope).
Zack Follett: he will hurt your mind.
by Hyperion Ecta on Jan 2, 2010 3:30 AM EST up reply actions
Sorry, bud...
but I think our defensive ends are the weakest link on the defense. The reason our secondary gets shredded so badly is because we get little to no pressure most games (not that we have any talent back there either). The most pressing need of the offseason IMO is a quality defensive end. Whether or not we can find one is another problem altogether. All four of the ends you mentioned are back-ups. Avril might evolve into a good situational pass-rusher, but I’m not sure he’ll ever be a great three-down, double-digit sack type of player. We need TWO starting ends for next year and one new DT starter. The D-Line is in sad, sad shape.
Close but disagree Drew
Your on the mark but I think the DR position causes the most disruption IMO. The DE get the credit most of the time due to the havoc a good pair of DT’s can do. But your right all in all about the benefits our secondary will recieve given great DE and DT play.
I spray paint my dog Honolulu Blue and Silver
Pic - me in one of my LIONS shirts
*DT positon causes the most..........
I spray paint my dog Honolulu Blue and Silver
Pic - me in one of my LIONS shirts
I would agree but...
we have a starter in Hill with huge upside. That makes one of two starting positions filled. With DE, we have zero of two positions filled. Also, we played pretty well against the run this year. The pass rush is badly in need of an upgrade.
I didn't say we didn't need a DT.....
I said DE was a greater need. Yes… DTs can rush the passer and are designed to do so at times. But that’s not the crux of Schwartz’s defense. He wants big space eaters to allow his DE (that play out wide of the tackles) to get one-on-one matchups.
Yes, we are 24th against the run. But perception is reality as well. There have been several games that we were much improved in this area. Last time I checked, 24 is a smaller number than 32.
24 is smaller
But it is the other 32`s that bother me…32nd overall d,32nd points allowed, 32nd pass yards allowed, even 31st in total yard, and 29th is sacks. And shortest distance between two points..a straight line. Don`t get me wrong if the next Jarred Allen in our laps, i`m buying the beer. Hell i`d even take Al Bubba Baker.
I disagree that DE is the greater need Drew
DT is the greater need. Our current DEs do get up field and they even get pressure on the QB. The problem is that there is no pass rush in the middle of the line. As such, the pocket never collapses on the QB, forcing him to move laterally and into the path of our DEs. Instead, they can just step up in the pocket, smile pretty at our pussy ass defensive ends, and throw the ball down field all day long. We need a dominant DT much worse than we need a DE.
Agree to disagree?
Not sure how you can say that with the poor pressure all season from the current group of DEs. I’ve seen the DTs get a good push most of the season. I think maybe you are looking for these guys to be more pass-rushing than space eaters. Our starters… Grady & Sammie are not pass rushing DTs, they are the quintessential space eaters. The third down, speedier tackles like Fluellen are the guys not getting it done in the middle. Suh would be that type of guy, no question. But still… constant pressure from the outside is a defensive cure-all, IMO.
But… we do need DTs as well… just not as much as an elite DE, IMO.
Dude....
I will agree to disagree here…..but your comment makes me wonder if you are actually watching the games or not. ALL YEAR LONG, the opposing QBs have been able to just step up in the pocket and have all day to throw the ball. The DEs are getting up field and forcing the opposing QB to step up in the pocket. They are doing their jobs by not breaking containment on the outside. The DTs are doing PART of their job, as they are doing a decent job at stopping the run. However, they ARE NOT collapsing the pocket in the middle of the line on passing downs, which is the reason our DEs are not getting any sacks.
I will agree that we could use a replacement for White, but I completely disagree that the problem with our pass rush this year had anything to do with our DEs.
Wow.... okay
You’re right. I haven’t even watched any of the games this year…. nor DVR’d them and watched some of the plays several times. What I meant to say was that our DEs have been fantastic! I was just joking with you. The opposing offensive tackles are not simply pushing the ends past them 90% of the time. Was it White, Hunter, McBride or Avril that made the Pro Bowl… I can’t remember. Anyway, you are totally correct as usual. One new defensive tackle will complete the defense and Avril will have 15 sacks next year because of it.
That was a pretty condescending post, man. Didn’t really appreciate it. I think my point is pretty valid… we need new starting DEs… AS WELL AS a new starting DT.
Ohhhh so sorry that I disagreed with you oh great exalted one
I wasn’t condescending in the least. Like you said somewhere else, I was just respectfully communicating my opposite opinion to what you posted (my comment about you actually watching the games or not was sarcasm). I have also DVR’d every game and watched them more than once. Does that make you or me perfect? Does that mean that you or I are 100% right beyond a reasonable doubt? No.
It is my opinion that the DEs we currently have were getting the job done. They were penetrating up field a great deal of the time. The difference between our defensive ends and say Minnesota’s, is that in Minnesota they have Kevin Williams collapsing the pocket in the middle of the line on a consistent basis. That forces the opposing QB to move either right or left, and more times than not Jared Allen and Ray Edwards are right there waiting. The teams that have beaten the Vikings have been very good at 3 things:
1) Run defense
2) Stopping the Williams wall from creating havoc in the middle of the offensive line
3) Containing Jared Allen and Ray Edwards
Do I think that we could not upgrade at DE? No. But do I think the DEs we currently have could do much better if we had a DT that was collapsing the pocket in the middle of the line? Oh yes…..I most certainly do. Not even Jared Allen and Ray Edwards get a sack on every passing play, which means that either the opposing QB is getting rid of the ball in a hurry, or their offensive line is holding the pocket in the middle so the QB can step up and gain time to throw the ball.
Condescending? Touche Drew…..you always think you are right and it is a rare occasion when you admit being wrong. You don’t like my tone….well the feeling is mutual. I never said that one DT would complete the defensive line, nor did I say that any of our defensive ends would end up with double digit sacks with the addition of one DT. In fact, I said that I AGREE that we could use a replacement for White!
Obviously, you see it one way and I see it another. The fact of the matter is that NEITHER ONE of us is 100% right. However, in the nature of discussion, I was simply stating my opinion from my point of view. You took it personal. Practice what you preach and stop taking my replies personal (yeah, I can block quote that coming from you in another thread, toward someone else, if need be). If I were trying to get such a big response from you, I did a damn good job. Too bad that was not my intent.
I'm pretty much done with you, KDawg
In your previous comment you said… “I completely disagree that the problem with our pass rush this year had anything to do with our DEs” How can you say that? To say defensive end is not a huge part of the problem is ridiculous.
I actually started this dialogue with a very good-natured attitude. But to tell me my that my point was pretty much irrelevant by saying that you wonder if I even watch the games… yeah, that’s personal. That’s saying that my assessment of the games and my knowledge of what’s happening with the Lions and my understanding of football is not very good. Yeah… that pisses me off a bit. Taking it personal…. yeah, because I’m not just some random. You know me. You and I have had our fair share of debates. I thought we got past this pissiness, but then I come back to see this retort…. that’s pretty much it for me. You can take all those things you just said and paste them into a post right back at you. You think I’m holier than thou? Look in the mirror buddy. I just don’t have that much time to post here anymore, so to waste my time with you just isn’t worth it.
I thought we had found some common ground respect-wise, but I guess I was wrong. You’re a smart guy, but I find myself in this space with you far too often. How ’bout we just steer clear from here on out…. capiche?
P.S......
Personally, I do hope things are going well for you and wish you the best there. But I can’t do this crap on here anymore.
Drew
DO whatever you want
I’m not going to side step you or refrain from commenting on your opinions just because you misunderstand what I am saying.
How can I say that I completely disagree that the problem with our pass rush this year had anything to do with our DEs? Because that is my honest opinion, and I backed it up with my reasoning.
You said that you had a good natured attitude when you started this dialogue, but you accused me of being “condescending”. I forgot that I need to spell out “here come’s a joke” before I say things like “your comment makes me wonder if you are actually watching the games or not”. You said it yourself, I know you as a regular here. On the same token, you know me. You know that I know exactly how much of a Lions fan you are, AND that I know that you DVR every game so you can analyze it. So you think my comment was serious, or that I was somehow patronizing you? Come on man….I wasn’t taking a personal shot at you, you just took it that way.
Next, you are putting words in my mouth. Just because I disagree with your opinion, and I state my own opinion and reason for that opinion, does not mean that I think that your “assessment of the games….knowledge of what’s happening with the Lions….and understanding of football is not very good”. On the contrary, you also know that I think very highly of you as a poster here (See my top 5 list….I know you did). In fact, I think you are one of the more knowledgeable people here when it comes to football. I just happen to have an opposing opinion about our pass rush.
Then you basically say “everything you say bounces off of me and sticks to you”. Sorry man, but I really think you are just having a bad day or something. Drew, take the assumption that you made of my tone out of the text and maybe you will see that I was not being “pissy” or attacking you. I do have respect for you, but like you I tend to defend first and ask questions later (thus the reason I reacted as such to the accusation of being condescending, a personal attack no less). I’ll come back later and see if you have calmed down. Peace.
RE: P.S......
Nothing has changed for me. If you decide that you will no longer talk to me here, then so be it.
Que Sera Sera and C’est la vi……the Wheel weaves as the wheel will.
Please read all of my comments. Do me a favor and don’t stop reading right away if it pisses you off. Do me another favor and remember what I said to you long ago….take the assumption of a negative, pissy, or condescending away when you read what I say. Replace it with a brotherly tone…..then you might better understand me.
Look man....
It always happens this way. You take a subliminal dig, I get pissed, you come back guns blazing and try to pin it on me by saying it was a “joke” and make me feel like I’m overreacting and a bad guy for second-guessing your motives or tones. It’s just ridiculous and I am tired of it. It’s the same vicious circle and more than mere coincidence.
You say you respect my opinion, but it’s never a basic contradiction with you. It’s taken to the Nth degree. Maybe you feel like you HAVE to prove me wrong because you think I always have to be right. You obviously think I’m a self-righteous know-it-all, so maybe that seeps into your retorts subconsciously, I don’t know. You’ve stated that enough times for me to know that the lip-service that you give after the fact is suspect at best. Maybe you feel you are competing with me for the “smartest dude on POD award” and have to put me in my place as often as you can…. who the hell knows. I’m tired of trying to figure it out. No one else seems to have a problem with me here like you do. So all I can say is that there is always something extra in your responses to me… what the reason is… I have no freakin’ clue.
As for my sarcastic response above… I appreciate when people disagree with me, but there are triggers that change the tone of the conversation…. like questioning my intelligence. I guess I just can’t tell when you are sarcastic or not. My follow up was blantantly sarcastic and you went ape-shit on me, so go figure.
BTW… I’m not having a bad day. To the contrary, I was having a very good day. I got caught up enough in my hectic everyday life to quietly watch the game and post on the site for the first time in quite a while. I do wish we could rise above this, but I have my doubts. There is just something about me you don’t like. Oh well. Can’t please ’em all, I guess.
Take care,
Drew
BTW....
Look at the top of this comment thread. See how the interaction between me, NYCLion and lionsfan64 went. Both of them disagreed with me and nothing nasty transpired. I was fine until the “actually watching the games” comment came into play. In my mind, that is insulting to my intelligence and has a condescending tone to it. How can I not read that as “you know nothing, I know everything”? Just not sure how I could have interpreted that differently…….
Like I said… I’m at a loss with all this junk.
Peace?
I’m in favor of the common-sense diplomatic approach.
We need a 2nd DT and maybe 2 DE’s. I don’t care which we need more. Suh is the BPA and should likely fall in our laps at #2. The Lions are likely to take him. It’s all good. I don’t see an obvious DE of value who would fall in our laps later, at least not this year. Take Suh, then see how much better the DE’s play next year with Suh and SLH in the middle. THEN we can decide how much of an upgrade we need at DE in 2011. Don’t worry, be happy.
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
like the energizer bunny
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
guess that's as small as it gets
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
i disagree too
our des get a hell of a lot more pressure than our dts do. we need a stud at dt who gets constant pressure and double teams, which will make our corners a little better and our des a little better.
In most cases...
the DTs are not there to rush the passer. That might change if we get a guy like Suh, but our big boys in the middle are run stuffers and players to eat blocks on passing downs, so our DEs can get one-on-one matchups. The DEs are not winning those one-on-ones. There is not a DE capable of starting on our roster. I hold out hope for Avril, but we desperately need an elite DE.
I think DE's get the credit
but DT’s cause the backfield to implode. But, all in all I think we are saying the same thing only you value the DE position slightly higher than DT. But, either way an elite DE or DT will do amazing things to our Win total
I spray paint my dog Honolulu Blue and Silver
Pic - me in one of my LIONS shirts
They're both as bad one another
We need at least one good DT and DE. I don’t think we can leave the draft with only one.
2009 = The start of the Lions Golden Age (We hope).
Zack Follett: he will hurt your mind.
by Hyperion Ecta on Jan 2, 2010 6:24 PM EST up reply actions
DE
we really aren’t to bad there we could use a kampman or peppers type DE but Avril and hunter have played well
I've been reading some mock drafts lately.....
………and some of these teams, like the Eagles, are looking for things like nickel backs in the early rounds…….and IMO, we don’t even have ANY good CB’s who are worthy of STARTING here! Must be nice to have that kind of depth. Depth is good, but so is filling our starting positions. With the draft never being a sure thing, I’m with Schwartz on this. If you have talent, keep it, don’t trade it away. Players get cut every year, but if these guys have any value to us at all, IMO keep them. Schwartz will meanwhile draft well, like he did last year. The trick is if some of these guys no longer fit at all here with what we’re now doing, but might have value to other teams. I’d still try to make use of them here, and trade them as a last resort. We’ll see what happens.
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
IMO our biggest need is
A shutdown corner. I think our D line play has been decent but our secondary is terrible. We get shredded all day in the passing game and most of it is from quick routes. Although our deep coverage is terrible as well. We have been getting pressure from our ends and the qb steps up in the pocket because our DT’s don’t get pressure. Sammie Lee could be good with experience but we need one more good DT.
I think our biggest need is a DT.
Not a shut down corner, for reasons you just posted. I also feel we need 2 corners, not just one.
Agree!
We need another DB. But we also need a DT, and DE. And an OL. Those are the 4 serious needs we need to address in this draft. We could also use another WR, and maybe a RB if KSmith cant go.
There are a lot of possiblilities in this draft! My opinion is pick Suh first. A DE like Graham in the second. And a DB in the third. Pick up an OL project in the fourth. And then go out and get a real stud lineman in FA in the offseason. We’ve got to protect Stafford. A vet OL is a must.
I’d also be open to trading down to get more picks in the first or second rds…
If we could pull off something like that, it would help every level of our defense, and help Stafford stay upright. I’d be excited.
Just livin' the dream...
My top needs are the same as yours
DT, DE, CB, OL
I’m not gonna rank them since we need them all very badly. I would like us to pick one of those in each of the first 4 rounds.
2009 = The start of the Lions Golden Age (We hope).
Zack Follett: he will hurt your mind.
by Hyperion Ecta on Jan 2, 2010 6:26 PM EST up reply actions
+10000000000
Hyper and in the order you have them as well
I spray paint my dog Honolulu Blue and Silver
Pic - me in one of my LIONS shirts
Myself,
I would move DE to the end. We have good DE. I would like to see how good with a good DT next to Sammie.
Lol,
Get a shutdown corner and see him get torched. What will happen is what always happens. A corner can’t cover a guy all day long. Thats what you would be asking him to do considering our crappy DT’s can’t get any real push. The ends damn near get there but all a QB has to do is step up and chill considering our DT’s can’t get off single blocks. We desperately need dominate Dt’s that can collapse the pocket. Until that happens I don’t care how good of a corner you have, he wont be able to cover a guy all day long.
Agree that in most cases.. shutdown corner without good D-Line equals poor coverage
But I’ll still contend that the greater need is DE. Schwartz’s defense is based on pressure from the outside. A guy like Suh might be the exception and the defense would be forced to cater to his abilities, but for all intents and purposes, an elite DE is the top priority, IMO.
Please don’t read into that…. Drew doesn’t think we need a DT. That’s not what I said……
as far as our lbs go
leave the team alone, part of a team becoming great is playing together, learning how one another play, having faith in the guy next to you. this is the first year in a while that our defense looked ok, all we need to do is address a couple spots on the defensive roster and it will get better. i think what a lot of people on this site want to see is a quick fix to the defense {the ones who want to trade sims avril who ever else} it takes time and as far as im concerened, let schwartz build this team.
Defense has looked OK?
overall 32nd, points per game-32nd, yards per game-31st, pass yards per game-32nd, rush yards per game-24th, sacks-29th. Thats why i want a good d-lineman.
Don't be suprised if the Lions draft a LB
I think they’re gonna let Foote walk and move Levy to MLB.
It all starts up front, gotta address the DL. I hope St. Louis drafts a QB @ #1
I hope not Jazzy
I really liked Foote on this team. The LB crew was the best part of this awful defense. I hope he comes back.
I spray paint my dog Honolulu Blue and Silver
Pic - me in one of my LIONS shirts
What on earth gives you the idea...
that they will let Foote go? He’s played well. He wants to be here. The fans love him. He’s an experienced, productive veteran. His salary is reasonable.
Barring some unknown injury, or other issue, they’ll keep him.
Just livin' the dream...
I don't think that they'll LET him go...
It’s about whether or not, at this point in his career, he wants to stick around and lose while the Lions try to build something. If he wants to be a part of a winner while his career winds down, hometown boy or not… he’s leaving dodge.
Hopefully, he sees enough in the young guys like Levy, Hill, Stafford, Pettigrew and Delmas to believe that in 2-3 years this will be a competitive club where he can be the veteran leader. Hopefully, he loves this community more than winning games short-term. Hopefully, the Lions can resign him.
I think he wants to be here
Foote seems to be wanting to re-establish roots here for a post-football career. He’s already been part of a winner. He’s got the rings. He had openly campaigned to come here in the past, but the Lions FO used that enthusiasm to lowball him on contract offers.
He’s done well here. I’d expect him to be resigned.
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
Yeah he wanted to be here
That`s hard to beat. But if he goes to second string he might be so happy and Levy might make that happen.
Step away from the bong....
Levy is 2-3 years away from developing enough to beat out Foote. He has shown some promise, but let’s not get crazy here.
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
Speaking of linebackers, this was on walterfootball mock draft for the Rams.
The Rams traded Will Witherspoon to the Eagles, so their current starting weakside linebacker is Paris Lenon. It doesn’t get much worse than that.
by yamahawarrior89 on Jan 3, 2010 12:12 PM EST reply actions
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