O Line and D Line NEED to be our #1 priority
by lionfan4life on Jan 9, 2010 2:22 AM EST
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PrintIn my opinion drafting Eric Berry or CJ Spiller should be the last thing on the minds of the people who control the Lions Draft. I think that neglecting the O and D lines again this year would be a huge mistake. I looked up the great drafts of the best GM in the history of the NFL, Matt Millen....(sorry I threw up a little in my mouth). MIllen drafted a grand total of 8offensive linman and from 2000 to 2008 the Patriots have drafted 14. Oh and of those 8 offensive lineman only four are still with the team and only three of those were drafted higher than round three. now to the D line, our boy Millen only drafted 10 D line, and only three of them are still on the team and they were drafted in rounds 3 and 7. Now I am not saying that we will find a Sammie Hill every year but only three left on the team in 8 years of drafting. It makes me sick when I look back at how Millen drafted and shafted us big time, no wonder we are the laughing stock of the NFL.
As I said before this is why I will always say that O line and D line should be our number one priority. I just can't say this enough and I feel like we are headed in that direction. I think that Schwartz and Mayhew are on the same page they have the same philosophy and it is to build from the inside out. So start getting your McCoy Jerseys ready.
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Well...
The problem with that logic is that we’re not going to be a contender for several years. You have to look at every draft class and compare it with the next; looking at what positions are a bigger need and who’s a rarer player.
As much of a mess as our lines are (the whole team is), if a duplicate Barry Sanders was created in a freak transporter accident and sent to the future (just to make an example :P ), I’d draft him a heartbeat.
That said, the real question is how much better is Eric Berry above his peers and can he do more for us than Gerald McCoy?
by metatron5369 on Jan 9, 2010 3:58 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
BPA = BPA
REGARDLESS of positional needs! If we impatiently go drafting all linemen just because those are our biggest holes, then we will end up reaching for a lot of average players (ALA MILLEN) and we will be in the SAME boat 3 or 4 years from now! I sincerely hope that Mayhew and Schwartz stick to their guns and take the BEST PLAYER AVAILABLE REGARDLESS OF POSITIONAL NEED! Eric Berry is thought to be the best player available in the entire draft by many “experts”. However, Kong Suh is also said to be the BPA in the draft by an equal number of “experts”. Therefore, if the Rams take Suh #1…..Berry will be the BPA. We can not afford to reach for a DT like Gerald McCoy at pick #2, just because some people think he can be the missing link on the defensive line. We can not afford to pass on potential greatness like Berry (or Suh for that matter if he does not go #1) for any other positional player. If Suh and Berry are both there at pick 2, then we have to weigh which of the positions we need more (if we can not determine or decide which player is better and which will give us the most bang for our bucks), and we have to draft that player! Plain and simple.
Schwartz never said that he wants to build the team from the inside out. He said that we will build the team through the draft, by selecting the BPA with each of our picks. Of course, if we have already filled a position with our draft picks (IE QB, TE, FS, OLB), and we feel that our starters and depth are good at those positions, then we will not draft players from those positions even if they are the BPA in the draft. That is the ONLY time that we should pass on the BPA!! With patience, we will build the team by drafting the best talent we can get and filling in, until all of the positions are filled with high level talent players. THEN we can maintain by drafting for BPA based on positional need. The Lion’s FO and coaching staff think that our LT and C are pro bowl caliber players. We can get quality (starting caliber) guards in the 2nd-5th rounds. Then all we have to do is keep an eye on Cherilus and hope that he develops into an anchor on the right side.
This year will not be the year that the Lions replace Jeff Backus, and if Suh is gone at pick 2, don’t count on the Lions reaching for Gerald McCoy…..because that is exactly what it would be if they drafted him over Eric Berry.
by KDawg on Jan 9, 2010 7:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
+10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 KDawg speaks truth!
This is common sense. This is also what Schwartz has said. How hard is this to understand??? Unless something radically changes before the draft, the Lions will very likely either get the #1 BPA (Suh) or the #2 BPA (Berry) with the #2 Overall Pick. We’re in a great position. Everything’s fine. Don’t make it harder than it has to be.
Hopefully we can accept our good fortune and hibernate until April, or focus on picks from the 2nd Round on. Rumor has it we have more picks after the 1st Round.
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
Schwarz did say he wanted to build the team from the inside out.
He also announced that this was a philosophy shared with Mayhew and Lewand…
“…I think things that are important are things that Martin [Mayhew] and Tom [Lewand] and I have talked about as far as having a plan and sticking with that plan and building the team from the inside out. …”
Thanks Jim
But if Schwartz did say that (and I do not doubt you or your source), and Mayhew and Lewand agree, then why did we draft Stafford over Jason Smith or Eugene Monroe, and why did we draft Pettigrew over Oher?? It is one thing to say something, and it is another thing to follow up on it. Plus, Schwartz and CO have also said that they will build the team through the draft by drafting the BPA at the team’s respective draft positions….seems like those two statements are kind of contradictory don’t you think?
YES
This comment was made in January, 2009 in an interview shortly following the announcement that Schwarz was hired. It is absolutely contradictory to selecting BPA, and contradictory to the strategy that was followed.
This statement had a lot to do with the initial surprise and disappointment with the 2009 draft experienced by many Lions’ fans (including many at POD).
I am not arguing your point. My speculation is that as FO talk continued, the initial conversations proved to be more platitudes than philosophy. I am not certain when BPA was announced, although it was certainly before the draft and the talk has not changed since.
For my part, I see nothing wrong with BPA and believe it will be the guiding principle in the Detroit Lions 2010 draft. I hope, however, that OL is addressed no later than the 3rd round as an important exception in order to protect Stafford.
I am hoping that one of the better guards will be there at the top of round 2
Iupati would be the BPA at pick 34…..I would guess.
I think your BFF Kiper
has the Lions picking McCoy. We should know prior to draft who the Rams take, but I still think it is Suh.
We'll hold you to that
And if Kiper says the Lions will take McCoy, that’s a good indication they won’t.
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
I love how you guys
use Kiper to support your position than curse the hell out of him. For the record, I don’t put anywhere near the stock into what Kiper says as opposed to Mayock. He wins the analysis year after year. He was the only guy I heard on draft day talk about TE with the 20 pick for the Lions. I still would have preferred Oher (if only for the pub on his movie)!
I never use Mel Kiper to support my position.....
Provide a link to one post where I have used Mel Kiper’s opinion to support any argument that I have made. Kiper is an idiot.
ok....thanks
Just making sure since I was part of the above discussion, and your reply was positioned in reply to my post.
I don't use Kiper either
I don’t rely on Mayock, either. I use a huge eclectic variety of sources (redundancy for emphasis). In fact, as a side hobby the last 5 years or so, I’ve kept track of 20-30 mock drafts to see who had the most correct picks. I started by checking the first 3 rounds, but with almost no correct picks after the 1st Round by any mocker, I cut that down to just the 1st Round. Even then, even the best only got 5 picks right in the 1st Round. And those guys were not the usual suspects. Instead, it was guys like James Alder of About.com (won twice), Mike O’Hara of the Detroit News, and Thefootballexpert.com. Hell, most mockers couldn’t get 3 of the top 5 picks right in most drafts. As a result, I tend to take the word of any one “expert” with a grain of salt, and I cast my net wide in a search for information and film. I then draw my own conclusions, based on logic, experience, and common sense.
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
I only use Kiper..for his hair care secrets....
if the shoe fits...get another one just like it - George Carlin
Drafting is tough to predict
I do tend to listen to Mayock though. As an indicator.
2009 = The start of the Lions Golden Age (We hope).
Zack Follett: he will hurt your mind.
by Hyperion Ecta on Jan 12, 2010 12:48 AM EST up reply actions
+10000
A few less zero’s the GRLion
2009 = The start of the Lions Golden Age (We hope).
Zack Follett: he will hurt your mind.
by Hyperion Ecta on Jan 10, 2010 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
We still need to go.....
…..BPA……we do need to improve both lines but we also need to improve everywhere but QB really……So that leads to the best BPA theory still in 2010 draft.
we need
players everywhere. Like the GM said everyone is responsible for 2-14. There is a reason minnesota had a bunch of pro bowlers and we had none. We are aren’t very good yet. We need good players at all positions. As good as SUH is neb stll lost to texas. They lost because texas is a better team. If SUH is available I would draft him because he is the best available but he won’t make our defense a great defense by himself.
While I agree
that we need both OL and DL help, I would like to say that I thought our DL did fairly well against the run most of the season (pass rush/ pressure not so much). They would keep the ypc down for most of the game, then a big run would happen. Well, the DL can’t do everything. There will be holes, the key is to limit the yardage gained after the hole happens. The way to do that is with solid tackling from the LBs and the DBs. But the LBs will occassionally be closed off as well leaving the DBs to make that play. Because our DBs were weak tacklers (Delmas aside – but I think I remember Schwartz saying that one of Peterson’s big runs was because Delmas took a bad step/ angle and Peterson was by him), the result was huge runs. And well, as far as pass coverage goes, having two ball hawks in the secondary who can make a play is never a bad thing.
Having said that, it’s my thought that we need as much talent as possible. I would love to have our own version of Dennis Smith and Steve Atwater back there with WRs afraid to cross the middle and two guys who will prevent the big gainer because they can actuially make a tackle. The reality is that we probably need a corner more than a S, but since there don’t seem to be any that would compare with Berry, I say we fill a hole in the secondary. AND, yes we do need OL help, but there isn’t an OL worth the #2 pick. Okung… meh. Maybe one of the others will step up. Or maybe we grab one with our 2nd pick (LG like Lupati would be awesome if he’s still there).
Of course this is all based on the idea that STL takes Suh. If they don’t, then we take Suh. No questions.
This isn't the Chicago Board of Trade
These are people, not commodities. Teams draft people, not positions. You have to look at the specific people available in a given draft. No two draft years are created equal.
Things Schwartz will look at:
1.-BPA. If the 2 BPA’s (Suh and Berry?) are way better than other players (McCoy), we will take the BPA.
2.-Positions of “need”. This is subordinate to and dependent on point #1. If the BPA plays a position where the player would be a significant upgrade, like DT (Suh) or safety (Berry), then we take that BPA. If the BPA plays a position that is already acceptably filled, like Stafford at QB, we won’t take the BPA at QB (Clausen?).
3.-Fit. This potentially trumps the other two points. If a player doesn’t fit what your team is trying to do on offense or defense, then it makes no sense to draft him regardless(McCoy). Some offensive skill-position superstars can be cornerstones and the playbook molded around them to a degree (Stafford & Calvin, Barry), but less so with other positions, especially on defense, where the players have to work together as an interdependent unit with no weak links.
Yes, I’d draft duplicate Barry. He would be the BPA, we could use that upgrade at RB, and he could fit here. No, I wouldn’t take Gerald McCoy. He’s not the BPA, and even though he plays a position where we could use an upgrade, he doesn’t fit this defense.
IMO, Ndomakong Suh and Eric Berry are a LOT better than their peers, with Clausen as perhaps the 3rd BPA. The Lions need help at both DT and safety, and both Suh and Berry would fit our defense. It would be criminally stupid for the LIONS to pass on either of them to take anybody else (McCoy). I’d guess Schwartz already suspects that, too. I trust the Schwartz.
The only thing I’d be getting a Gerald McCoy jersey ready for is to burn it.
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
by GRLion on Jan 9, 2010 10:44 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
I agree w/ some of what you're saying GR, BUT...
you speak with certainty and absolutes….you make good points w/ BPA and fit and whatnot, but (like you) I trust Swartz and if he says McCoy fits, he fits. If it’s Berry, I’m just as happy. But to say you’re going to burn a jersey is a bit much. I know fan stands for fanatical but seriously.
So what DOES Schwartz say? (And Gunther?)
He wants the Lions to get bigger, stronger, and more physical. McCoy is smaller, weaker, and less physical than what we have now.
Gunther Cunningham said he wants GIANT DT’s and really fast DE’s. McCoy is not GIANT.
Based on what Schwartz and Cunningham have already SAID (and what Mayhew has already DONE bringing in BIG DT’s), McCoy doesn’t fit.
And I’m too cheap (and poor) to actually buy a jersey just to burn it. Someone else is going to have to buy a McCoy jersey and give it to me free. Then I’ll burn it.
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
GR
McCoy weighs 3 pounds less than Suh…..so the “he is not big enough” argument is weak (sorry man). However, I agree that he does not play up to his size. I agree that he plays weak against strong opposition (case, point, and match can be seen in the OK vs OK State game). I would like to point out that McCoy COULD fit our system….but he is not a player that will make the immediate impact that Suh or Berry will. Gerald McCoy is a developmental player in the NFL, at best, and it will be a few years before he reaches his potential. We can’t afford to take project players at pick 2….it is that simple.
The “huge mistake” would be passing on Berry (if Suh is gone at pick 2) to draft Gerald McCoy. I am with you 100% on that point.
cool
Yep, drafting projects at #2 is way too risky.
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
Technically, Suh* is not "big enough" for Gunther's defense, either.........
………but Suh* is so insanely strong (has the strength of a guy 20-30 Lbs bigger) that he gets a pass, gets an asterisk. When Gunther says he wants GIANT DT’s, based on what we have and who we brought in, the DT’s should probably be 320 Lb+. Suh* is a 325-335 Lb DT in a 305 Lb package. McCoy is a 285 Lb DT in a 297 Lb package. So yeah, I stand by my statement that Gerald McCoy is too small. He doesn’t have the bulk at the point of attack, and (unlike Suh*) doesn’t have the strength to offset that…..not even close.
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
LOL
McCoy deffinitly has the frame to get a lot bigger. He actually looks skinny for being around 300 lb’s. That’s what I mean by trusting Swartz. Does this kid have the drive to put on weight to be the space eater/power rusher we crave….or is he going to pull a (insert any recent top draft pick for the Lions) and get all lazy and unmotivated on us?
Sidenote, LOVE GUNNY. KC fans were fools to be happy to be rid of him. The man just need to coach HIS defense HIS way. Light a fire under their asses!
I very much agree with GRlion on the issue
I know there is 4 months to go and who knows what will happen but as of today McCoy is not #2 worthy. Suh and Berry are. Because of money involved tou have to pick someone who is worth it.
Also, taking schwartz and gunthers comment regarding bigger DTs, you dont draft a player @ #2 that you have to mold in your image. I mean if the lions take him and they put 20 lbs on him, what if it kills his agility and Athleticism? That is something you do to someone that is getting 60+million.
"If your not with us...
you're with the terrorists!!"
errr..
that is NOT something you do to someone that is getting 60+million.
"If your not with us...
you're with the terrorists!!"
+1
Agree completely, too much of a risk.
(I posted a similar thought simultaneously……still trying to figure out how my comment above is tagged 1 minute (1:18) after yours (1:17) but is listed before yours, lol)
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
nvm, it got re-ordered and is below now
Please excuse the babbling……I’ve had a cold for a week, or maybe the bird/swine flu.
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
McCoy weak for his size, and his game relies on his speed/quick first step rather than strength......
………so whatever weight he puts on better be ALL muscle, and he’d better learn to incorporate more power in his playing style, too.
Asking a player to add 20 Lbs of muscle AND change his playstyle in order to be effective in our system……..bit of a high risk for a #2 overall pick…..sounds like a project. I’d rather have Suh or Berry, who both fit our defense NOW and are (IMO, and the opinions of most people right now), the two BPA’s in the draft.
Based on everything Schwartz has said and done, McCoy doesn’t fit here, and Schwartz won’t want him.
Gunny wants GIANT DT’s in his defense, and McCoy can’t play Gunny’s defense Gunny’s way without radically changing his body and his playstyle. Gunny won’t want him.
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
My thoughts on the matter....
We need a running game.
We need a pass rush.
Whoever the BPA is that meets those needs, I say we take them.
If there are 5 people on the top of our board and the only one that helps meet either of those needs is a RB, then I say that’s what we draft.
The point is, this is a multi-year upgrade process and we do it right, like coach said. We don’t look at just winning next year, but being a Super Bowl caliber team at some point. That takes TALENT and QUALITY football players.
Let’s be honest, Backus isn’t going anywhere. So the top pick is going to be a DE, DT, OG, or RB.
Whichever one of those is top on our list and available, that’s who they take.
I know noone wants to hear it but Coach Schwartz’s comments about the RB position have me believing we draft one this year in the first 3 rounds, possible Rd2.
WRONG...imo
We need a running game.
We need a pass rush.
Whoever the BPA is that meets those needs, I say we take them.
The bpa that meets those needs does not even come close to be worthy of 1.2
There is no way to know that...
Most fans projections last year, including my own, were WAY off from what actually occured.
The truth is, until the combine there is no way to tell how everyone grades out. McCoy may very well greade very high, CJ Spiller may grade very high, and any number of other players may grade very high on our list.
Right now, it’s all speculation. Even then however, a solid DT will help get pressure on the QB and I can think of 2 this year that are top 5 projections. I can also think of an OT that is top 5.
There are plenty of ways to help fix those needs. I just say we take whoever BEST helps those 2 needs.
OK, I'm confused
When you bpa that helps those two needs, do you mean only RB and WR? In other words, you wouldn’t take Suh, McCoy, Berry, or Okung because they are not RB or WR? If that is true, that is where my “beef” lies. I definitely don’t think we should only choose a RB or WR with 1.2
No, No, No
I said we need a running game and pass rush. BPA to help in those 2 areas we take. That applies to lots of positions. I am just saying we take players that are good in those specific areas. Like if we take a DE, take one who is known for his great pass rush ability.
Suh and McCoy qualify, even Okung if he plays OG for a few seasons (or Backus gets moved).
Besides, I see us getting a steal in RD2 on a DE like Greg Hardy or Carlos Dunlap if we are lucky. So DT in Rd1 makes a LOT of sense.
Our D and Pass Rush would be hugely improved if we drafted Suh/McCoy 1.2 and Dunlap 2.2 …
I am interested to see how far Hardy falls due to injury concerns…
So, if that's everyone's oppinion on McCoy
How do you justify Suh? He’s about the same size, nowhere near being a giant, and seems (at least to me) that he is about as big as he’s going to get. Just asking. I guess you could say he’s just “that good”.
Hyperion Ecta's pesismistic statement for the month:
There will probably to outcomes here:
1. We pick McCoy and he is everything his critics have been saying, weak, not strong etc etc, and fails, busting for us.
2. Becomes a stud DT who just seems to play well despite his apparant ‘shortcomings’. Sorta like Chris Johnson (I remember when people were saying he wasn’t powerful enough and couldn’t carry the load).
2009 = The start of the Lions Golden Age (We hope).
Zack Follett: he will hurt your mind.
by Hyperion Ecta on Jan 9, 2010 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
two* outcomes
2009 = The start of the Lions Golden Age (We hope).
Zack Follett: he will hurt your mind.
by Hyperion Ecta on Jan 9, 2010 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
Suh is different from McCoy
How do you justify Suh?
Suh is insanely strong for his size, much stronger than McCoy, who is relatively weak for his size.
Suh uses his strength as a major part of his game. McCoy, who relies on a quick first step, does not use strength as a major part of his game.
Suh will get bigger, but he fits our defense right now. McCoy does not fit our defense right now. McCoy might get bigger, but he might lose his speed and agility as a result. Also, it had better be all muscle or he still won’t be strong enough to fit our defense. And McCoy would still have to change his playstyle to use his strength more.
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
be two* outcomes---lol
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
How do we justify Suh???
He is inhumanly strong that is how! He is a runaway truck! Have you ever seen the guy play? Nevermind, I remember you saying that you aren’t much of a college football fan (I think). Kong Suh can split the double team with his strength AND his speed, even against the strongest of opponents. Kong Suh can single handedly control the middle of the LOS (and has done so in many of his games in college). He is possibly the BEST DT prospect to come out in the draft in 20 years! He does not even compare to Gerald McCoy. Just for kicks….here is a comparison for you from this year (McCoy’s junior season and Suh’s senior season):
Total Tackles: McCoy – 32, Suh – 82
Solo Tackles: McCoy – 25, Suh – 47
Sacks: McCoy – 6, Suh – 12
Career INTS: McCoy – 1, Suh – 4
Career DEF TDS: McCoy – 0, Suh – 2
Junior Season comparison (McCoy’s stats above against Suh’s junior season stats below):
Suh: 76 total tackles, 39 solo, 7 sacks, 2 INTs, 2 TDs (a 49 yd and a 30 yd pick 6….by a DT!).
That is how we can justify Suh….he IS just “that good”.
by KDawg on Jan 9, 2010 8:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
82 tackles from a DT????? That's insane!
Plus, Suh’s going to buy us all ponies.
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
and people still think the Rams will pass him over
for an underrated Q.B…and BPA..isn`t there only 1 player in this draft named Best..everybody can`t draft him.. : )~
The #1 pick is a different dynamic......and the QB position is a different dynamic
And overall, the Rams are in a different situation right now than we are. Their situation is similar to where we were LAST year. Everybody can’t draft him? Everybody WON’T draft him. We are not the Rams, the Rams are not us.
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
Schwartz and the FO know best
Trust the Schwartz!
2009 = The start of the Lions Golden Age (We hope).
Zack Follett: he will hurt your mind.
Trust in Schwartz
I’m going to wait for the coverage on the Senior Bowl practice and see what area’s that Coach Schwartz concentrates on. You can bet that he’s going to be evaluating the players during the week before.
It will be covered in depth on NFL network.
Good idea
I’ve been following the Senior Bowl closely the last few years, and it seems like you learn more about players in the week of practice than you do in the games. A lot of it is one-on-one matchups…..WR/DB, OL/DL, etc. This is important because you not only get to see who does well in those matchups of the best senior offensive and defensive players, but you also get to compare players in a position group against EACH OTHER to see who does the best……which WR looks best against the same set of DB’s, etc. Sometimes a guy stands out and looks like a man against boys. Enlightening.
What? He can’t block a dead gopher? Humph, details.
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