Eerie parallels?
by sgdbw90 on Feb 27, 2010 4:59 PM EST
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PrintSo I recognize that this comparison is a real stretch, and that the situation probably doesn't apply, but it's a thought that I want to put out there for you guys to save in the back of your mind.
This is the story of two players eligible for the draft. Both hugely praised, both play the same position, both "for sure" top 5 picks in the draft. The "more praised" of the two played college ball for a BCS school but not a real contender, and he puts up out-of-this-world stats. The scouts go nuts for his abilities, and there are hours of game tape of him destroying the competition. He seems like a good, fun-loving guy. Slam dunk type player. The "less-praised" player isn't really less praised, he's just less hyped. Everyone knows he's a complete stud, but he doesn't get quite the same accolades, and his highlight reel isn't quite as impressive. He didn't win the award given to the best player at his position (the other guy did). That said, he spent 4 years playing for a legit contender, made appearances in the BCS championship game during his career, and played outstanding football at every level. Also a slam dunk, right?
Well, we Lions fan know this story a little too well. This is the 2003 draft, and the first "more hyped" player is Charles Rogers. The second "less hyped" player is Andre Johnson. Seven years later, we know this to have been arguably the worst decision of the Millen-era, the kind of move that arguably set us back 3 years (not counting the years of setbacks from the other awful deals). Johnson is a perennial Pro Bowler who leads the league in receiving yards even though he's playing for a mediocre team with a mediocre QB. Rogers is in a jail cell somewhere.
If this situation sounds familiar, that's by design. This also applies to Ndamukong Suh (more hyped) and Gerald McCoy (less hyped) in this years draft. Now, I have no reason to think that Suh will turn out like Rogers. All I'm saying, though, is that if we do end up with McCoy, well, perhaps that's for the best. Given the Lions' track record, I don't think I'd even be that sad about it. Just a thought.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Pride of Detroit or its writers. FanPosts are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable fans.
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WOW
We may have made a SB with Kitna LOL
The best there is, The best there was, and the best there ever will be - Bret the Hitman hart
by The Profiler on Feb 27, 2010 7:16 PM EST up reply actions
even joey?
The best there is, The best there was, and the best there ever will be - Bret the Hitman hart
by The Profiler on Feb 27, 2010 10:20 PM EST up reply actions
We wouldn't have CJ if we drafted AJ
http://cmufootball.blogspot.com/
by CapitolLions on Feb 28, 2010 9:23 AM EST up reply actions
I agree
it wouldn’t have happened nice thought though.
The best there is, The best there was, and the best there ever will be - Bret the Hitman hart
by The Profiler on Feb 28, 2010 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
interesting take
i’m still of the mind that past production predicts future success and McCoy was a good but not great at times last season while the man named Suh was consistently disruptive. According to espn.com: for 2009- Suh 82 tackles 12 sacks, Mccoy 32 tackles 6 sacks. Obviously this does not tell the whole story but that big of a discrepancy is at least worth note.
that's the problem
You’re exactly right about the stats. All the signs point to Suh this year just like all the signs pointed to Rogers in 2003. It’s impossible to predict (or, rather, nearly impossible). That said, in the back of my mind, I can’t help but shake the feeling that McCoy will be the better of the two of them. And it has nothing to do with their actual performance, although as a UT fan, I did see a lot of both of them this year.
And as a Texas fan who struck more fear in your heart when you played them?
I haven’t looked up the stats.
Hold it now!
Charlie and the smoke factory was more hyped “to us” because he not only came from SAGINAW MICH but he also played at MSU so he was wayyyyyy more hyped to michiganders. As I recall AJ got more national press and was drafted before Charlie for a reason.We as lions fans wanted Charlie for those 2 reasons, and if Smoke Rogers of the 21st century wouldn’t have reinjured that collar bone (a injury he also had in high school) who knows what he would of turned out to be? My idea is (plexi-glass) Burriss. I mean that opening day game against the Cards at home was spectacular, what rookie lays out and makes diving sideways into the endzone catches? Oh yeah one thats stoned outta his mind!
Rogers went before AJ (he was 2, AJ 3). Bear in mind that Rogers had better stats (1300 yards and 13 tds) than AJ (1100, 9) and won the Biletnikoff Award. Lions fans were particularly sensitive, but everyone and their mother had Rogers ranked ahead of AJ. As someone who is a Lions fan even though I never lived in Michigan, I can tell you that this was the national perception as well.
Yeah You guys are right
I just went and looked it up. I’ll say it for ya’s DUMB ASS! Hey all you regulars know I’m not perfect, just loyal! And I’m definitley not affraid to admit when I’m wrong. Just wish it didn’t happen as much as it does.
Definitely Suh
But everyone saw that game and how he went crazy. Worth pointing out that the rest of the Nebraska line was better than the rest of the Oklahoma line, and both were excellent, so arguably McCoy was more valuable.
Well, our line isn't exactly stacked with probowlers
I’ll take Suh. The guy who proved he can play at a high level even if the rest of his team was sucking it. Because that is the situation he will play in at Detroit.
Good stuff
Andre and Calvin Johnson would be beasts. They probably would surpass the duo in Arizona for the best wide receivers in the game. The Lions wouldn’t need a offensive line as bad if they had them two to lob to.
The only bad thing would be, we probably wouldn’t have Matthew Stafford at this point and Kitna would be having Pro Bowl numbers despite taking sack after sack after sack after sack…you get the idea.
The entire town wanted Charles Rogers, at least the Spartan fans. I don’t really blame Millen as much for that pick as much as the other 4394094504 mistakes he made. Fans always want local talent but the team still should have done their homework a little more. Charles had talent but injuries and smoking and lots of other things contributed to that. Mike Williams, no excuse there however.
Andre Johnson is almost at the same spot as Calvin Johnson is right now. Mediocre team, even though Texans mediocre is WAY better then the Lions mediocre.
www.prosportsdraft.webs.com
Lions aren't mediocre
They suck. I WISH they were mediocre.
No way is this like Charles Rogers and Andre Johnson, are you high???
Suh is the best DT prospect to come into the draft since……….well, who knows? Rogers was just another top receiver. This compares more to Ryan Clady and Jake Long, or an off-position comparison such as Calvin Johnson and Adrian Peterson. These guys were all at the tops of their draft classes and there were debates on who would end up being better. In the end, they all became phenomenal, so I think Suh and McCoy will as well. Rogers had tons of issues involving failed drug tests and such. These two have nothing compared to that.
The comparison to Rogers in Chuck Rogers in this draft is
Mount Cody and his pepperoni sized areolas. Just as Rogers smoked and drank his way out of the NFL, Mount Cody is going to eat himself into a prison known as his kitchen.
Interesting comparison
lionsman did point out something though. Suh is considered the best DT prospect in a decade. I don’t believe Rogers had that same hype.
The Bringers of Hope: Stafford - Delmas - C. Johnson - Pettigrew - Levy - Hill - Schwartz
Zack Follett: he will hurt your mind.
To me this
sounded more like the Peyton Manning Ryan Leaf scenario. Cancells eachother out IMHO. Plus Suh has zero knocks on his character. (and Chuck Rogers ran a sub 4.3 40 didn’t he?) you can’t coach that kinda speed.
by Waitingfortheroar on Feb 27, 2010 8:23 PM EST reply actions
Thats true det32
But, all Lineman myself included go through some types of knee injuries. Its really a matter of playing through them in the pros, no? I dount any coaches wanted him playing hurt in college.
by Waitingfortheroar on Feb 27, 2010 8:43 PM EST up reply actions
Thats true.
are you sure that goes all the way back to highschool though?
by Waitingfortheroar on Feb 27, 2010 10:09 PM EST up reply actions
Actually, I think the manning-leaf comparison plays out the same way except that Manning went higher. Leaf put up unworldly numbers on an insignificant BCS school, Manning put up very very good (but not insane) numbers on a major contender. They finished 2-3 in Heisman voting, so it’s hard to say if one was more or less hyped than the other. I guess the comparison doesn’t fit these two as well as it fits the others, but it certainly doesn’t cancel it out either.
SGD
Insignificant BCS School? is that possible being that he played for a Pac-10 schoool? As much of a bust as Leaf was as a pro, he ran that spread offence damn well; well enough to put that insignificant school in the Rose Bowl., Sorry I have to say this but they were the shit that year until they ran into MICHIGAN in that rose bowl and Leaf still put up good #‘s in that game against a very good Michigan secondary. Although Manning did play for a SEC school and most of you seem too think that the SEC is far dominant over all other conferances, I still don’t see it, I said it once and I’ll say it again and gain; They all play like 2 schools a year that are worth a damn and they are usually at home and witha bye week before those games. Screw the SEC, Put every one of those teams into either the Big 10,Pac10;Big 12 and lets see them win every game.The SEC is just an over hyped conferance 4 out of eery 5 years if not more.
+1
Leaf was a man child in college. I hope it’s not the same with Suh. Good dude. The SEC has the best overall pure athletes in college however IMHO
by Waitingfortheroar on Feb 28, 2010 1:35 AM EST up reply actions
Not exactly
Manning went 40-9 in his 4 years at Tennessee (4 of those losses came in his freshman year). Leaf went 26-20 during those same four years. Leaf went 10-2 his last year but he was 5-6 the year before and 3-8 the year before that. Leaf was a beast that year, and get drafted as a result, but I don’t think anyone would say that Washington State is a legit contender. Even in that huge year (a big year for UM), Tennessee finished 5th in the nation, Wash St finished 16th. This has nothing to do with SEC vs. Pac-10 (I was raised on the west coast and am a Pac-10 fan in general). This has to do with these two schools.
davis I think he is referring to Washington State in particular, not the Pac 10 as a whole.
But, just because a school is not a perennial contender does not mean they are not competitive. The Coach at WSU is known as an offensive wiz and has churned out some excellent QB prospects for the NFL. Besides Leaf there was Drew Bledsoe, Jack Thompson, and Mark Rypien.
I have a bit of a soft spot for this program because they seem to scout and use Canadian football players more than most.
I don't think the overhype thing is to important here
I think they can both be great DT in the leauge for many years I think Suh is better day one Mccoy needs more work. Why it comes to overhyped players no one was more overhyped than “the boz” but I don’t think we have to worry about that too much. I just feel good about the pick we will get. I am for Suh or Berry that dosen’t mean Mccoy isn’t good or can be great just no it are defense I feel.
The best there is, The best there was, and the best there ever will be - Bret the Hitman hart
by The Profiler on Feb 28, 2010 9:38 PM EST up reply actions
Hell no!!
Rogers did not run a sub 4.3 40. No WR’s ran a sub 4.3 that year. Tyrone Calico ran the fastest at 4.33.
OMG!!
This has to be one of the dumbest posts. If anybody paid attention to the Johnson- Rogers scenario. AJ was taller than Rogers, outweighed Rogers, faster than Rogers and stronger than Rogers. Rogers just ran better routes at the time and had better numbers in college. AJ just had a problem with his eyesight, which was corrected with a visor. Who wins? AJ hands down. I wanted to cry when we selected Rogers.
Interesting
at the beggining I thought u were gonna compare manning and leaf
The beginning of the end of the misery
Rogers was great when he wasnt injured
If he didn’t break his collarbone (multiple times), he would have been a monster. It is amazing what a couple 1000 yard seasons will do for you when you are caught with some weed. I recall Randy Moss actually drove into a cop and was caught with a roach in his ashtray and no one cared. Rogers problem was not weed, it was injuries.
Now if the front office had soem way to tell if he had weak collar bones…
isn't
the fact that he looked like he’d never lifted a weight in his life some sort of a sign? lol
by Waitingfortheroar on Feb 28, 2010 10:54 AM EST up reply actions
Gerald McCoy is an underclassman
He did not play 4 years at Oklahoma, and he sucked balls when they played Texas and Oklahoma State (I know because I watched those games). You claim that Suh is the more hyped player, but I disagree. I think McCoy is the much more hyped player at this point, and overly so. Compare their stats, and then tell me which player warrants more hype? Hands down, Nadamukong Suh is the better player, and he will be immediately and in the future. I do not disagree that Gerald McCoy is a good player, even a top TEN talent. However, the media hype machine has him in the top 5, and I am not so sure that his ability warrants that grade. What has he EVER done that is better than what Suh has done? Nothing…..period. The ONLY reason this is even a conversation, and the ONLY reason that ANYONE is even mentioning Suh and McCoy in the same sentence is because Suh had 2 knee surgeries in his freshman and sophomore years at Nebraska.
Are you F-ing kidding me? This GD argument pisses me off to no end……Gerald McCoy – DT Oklahoma SOONERS (HUGE name BCS school, ultra hype machine) – McCoy, in 3 seasons at Oklahoma, had 77 TOTAL tackles, 14 sacks, and 1 INT. He does not even BEGIN to compare to GLENN DORSEY even! Glenn Dorsey had 133 total tackles and 10 sacks between his JUNIOR AND SENIOR SEASONS!! That’s right…..TWO years! He went to the Chiefs as the FIFTH pick in the 2008 draft, and he was put in a position that DOES NOT fit his skill set, just like it would be for McCoy in Detroit!
Ndamukong Suh – DT Nebraska Cornhuskers – Suh, in TWO seasons (Junior and Senior years) accumulated 158 total tackles, 19 sacks, 3 INTS, and TWO defensive TDs! Does this mean that he could not end up busting? No. Does his skill set fit our team better than Gerald McCoy? YES! Will he be able to continue doing what he has done for the last two seasons at Nebraska, here in Detroit? I say he has a much better chance at doing just that as a LDT in Detroit, versus the smaller and weaker Gerald McCoy, whose skillset has him playing UT in a 4-3 defense that WE DO NOT USE! The 4-3 defense that McCoy fits into well, is a COVER 2 or QUARTER BASED 4-3 defense! Could we alter the current scheme to fit Gerald McCoy? Yes, we most certainly could. Would we want to alter the current scheme to fit Gerald McCoy? I seriously doubt it! Why would we go back to a COVER 2 or a QUARTER BASED 4-3, when that very same defensive philosophy FAILED us in the recent past, with much the very SAME personnel?? This argument is MOOT!
The bottom line…..we will not have to make big changes to accommodate Suh. We would have to revert to our old and failed defense to accommodate Gerald McCoy. Not only is McCoy the far more overhyped player, but also he does not fit what we are trying to do in Detroit…..and that is that.
Oh you didn't know?? You're ass better CALLLLLLLL SOMEBODY!!!!!
by KDawg on Feb 28, 2010 2:06 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
good catch
sorry about the 3 years-4 years thing, I forgot he was an underclassman. That said, i think my take is still accurate. Suh deservedly got much more praise than McCoy, while McCoy played very well for a better program overall. And I too watched the texas game and I saw that otherwise mediocre OU line completely shut down UT’s vaunted offense. Interior lineman stats are useful, but rarely tell the whole story. Rogers’ stats were also way better than AJ’s during their career.
Also, I played a bit of d-line in my day and I can tell you that the fundamental difference between a 4-3 quarter/cover-2 scheme and the more blitz happy version that Cunningham runs isn’t too substantive a change for a d-lineman. If anything, it’s slightly easier since the main responsibility is less on getting to the QB (as it is in the cover-2) and more on occupying blockers and defending the run. Any decent coach could make McCoy a more good fit for that.
The underlying point I was trying to make isn’t necessarily that we should draft McCoy ahead of Suh, but rather if (when) the Rams take Suh first, we shouldn’t be too disappointed about taking McCoy.
I hope they don't take McCoy
Hes freakin 295!!! Thats a DE in a 3-4 scheme, not a DT in our scheme. 307 (Suh weight) isn’t the ideal weight either buts its much closer to what we’re looking for, not to mention Suh is far stronger.
Suh gets a lot of praise because he deserves it. He played for a small program, where the coaching wasn’t as good, and the talent around him wasn’t as good as McCoy had around him, yet he outproduced McCoy’s ENITRE career in one season.
The beginning of the end of the misery
KDawg speaks truth!
The bottom line…..we will not have to make big changes to accommodate Suh. We would have to revert to our old and failed defense to accommodate Gerald McCoy. Not only is McCoy the far more overhyped player, but also he does not fit what we are trying to do in Detroit…..and that is that.
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
Good stuff
I agree with the Suh assessments but I would have to somewhat disagree a bit on McCoy. The Texas game couldn’t have come at a better time for Suh. The hype was just ridiculous. But still, you can’t take away anything from the beast. He is everything you can ask of in a DT and more.
McCoy, however, not saying is better than Suh, played in a more NFL type penetrating offense rather then the read and react safety type play from Suh. McCoy has more NFL defense experience but Suh can definitely learn it and maybe even surpass him in the future.
What it comes down to really is who is available. If Suh’s there, he has to be the pick at 2, but if not, the Lions won’t be least worried about taking second pickins with McCoy.
www.prosportsdraft.webs.com
Like the post
interesting comparision. I think McCoy and Suh will be great players. AJ is a elite player and Rogers could have been elite. He was on his way to a ROY performance when the injury hit. Then the following year an inch away from the first fracture. Just bad luck. The guy had hands and was a flat out stud.
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