If Russell Okung is the pick
by n4ry4 on Mar 10, 2010 12:33 PM EST
Email
PrintPlease, indulge me while I ramble. Or don't, there are shorter fanposts to read...
What I like about Picking Okung
Okay, I'm going to have to turn off my knee-jerk "BPA Suh or Berry! BPA Suh or Berry!" impulse for this one a little bit, and look at the positional value teams put on elite left tackles in the draft, what that means in terms of us getting one in the future once we start winning (i.e. not getting top-5 draft picks), and also the actual value on the field of having an elite pass-protector when we face Jared Allen, Julius Peppers and Clay Matthews twice a year.
We need a long-term Left Tackle. The top LT's in each draft are the second highest-valued positions in the draft after quarterback**, and they rarely fall out of the top 5 picks. If you have faith in Schwartz like I do, we won't be selecting in the top 5 again for a long time. We're building a winning team.
What this means is that, if he fits the consensus view that he is an elite blind-side pass-blocker, and if the Lions start winning and stop ending up with high draft picks, Russell Okung the is the single best Left Tackle we will have a chance to draft for a very long time.
Of course if Suh and Berry also fit the consensus view about them, then Ndamukong Suh is the single best Defensive Tackle we will have a chance to draft for a very long time (assuming St. Louis takes a QB). Oh, and, of course, Eric Berry is the single best Safety we will have a chance to draft for a very long time.
But we're in a division, and a league, with some great pass-rushers, and I DO NOT WANT Stafford to struggle because, while he had all the talent and heart in the world that it took to be a great QB, he was not properly protected, and got beat up so bad that his lack of protection doomed us all to watching Culpepper/Stanton trot out there late in the season and throw games away, again.
Sliding Backus over, i.e. "two birds with one stone"
If we take Okung with our top pick, we'd likely either start him out at Guard and move him to Tackle soon after, or just put him at LT to start the season. We'll even be able to debate who the LT should be. If you enjoyed "Stafford vs Culpepper" on PoD, think of the fun we can have with "Backus vs Okung". Maybe Okung is not quite as good a run-blocker as Backus, but I have no reason to suspect either guy couldn't fill that huge gaping hole at Left Guard.
Okung is very strong--he put up 38 reps at the combine. That's 6 more than Suh, even with Okung's longer arms, for anyone who thinks bench press reps at the combine are meaningful (recalling some other discussions on PoD, bench press reps seemed like a significant reason for some to doubt Gerald McCoy's strength when comparing him to Suh). I have no reason to believe he couldn't be a much better Left Guard than Loper or Ramirez if he wasn't ready to take over at Left Tackle immediately (which would be no red flag to me--even Jonathan Ogden started in the NFL at the guard position).
More likely, Backus would slide to Guard, and allow Okung to do what he does best--protect our QB against teams' best pass-rusher.
The thing I like most about this: We don't have to worry about that LG position any more for a few years! We already know Backus is a decent starting lineman with good ability and excellent durability, he'd be fine at Guard, so we could stop scouring a thin FA market or hoping for a mid-round 2010 rookie to step up (both are dubious propositions if we hope to have a good O-Line in 2010). We can save that third- or fourth-round pick to spend fixing our secondary, or whatever. One less hole to fill. yay.
What I don't like about picking Okung
BPA
Would Schwartz and Mayhew honestly tell all of us that Okung was higher on their draft board than both Suh and Berry, that he is likely to be a better football player than those two, and that's why we drafted him--because we always take the BPA over positional need--and expect fans to believe it? I guess I'd have trouble with that one. Maybe it's true, maybe Suh and Berry have been able to secure so much more hype because they get to do things like knock down the QB and run back interceptions for touchdowns. On the other hand, offensive linemen can be such unsung heroes--it can be harder to notice non-sacks caused by a good OT than sacks caused by a good DT. I guess I'll defer to the consensus I've heard for a few months now--that while Okung is clearly the best LT in this draft, Suh/Berry is "the next" Sapp/Reed, thus picking Okung over Suh/Berry would be a deviation from BPA, in favor of positional value.
Jeff Backus, you rock! Now get out of the way and go play Guard
I also wonder how Schwartz would handle giving praise to an offensive lineman, saying he deserved to be voted to the Pro Bowl, and then immediately spending the second pick in the whole draft on somebody who plays his position. Obviously Schwartz doesn't have to let things he said in the past affect his sound decision-making, but I wonder if there would be any credibility damage in sending those mixed signals. Maybe not, but you'd have to wonder how he'd field those questions that are guaranteed to come about what he said about Backus if Okung is the pick.
**
Draft Position of FIRST Offensive Tackle drafted (2000-2009):
3,2,4,8,2,13,4,3,1,2 (Median = 3)
Draft Position of SECOND Offensive Tackle drafted (2000-2009):
6,14,7,20,16,19,39,5,12,6 (Median = 13)
Number of Offensive Tackles gone before pick #15 (2000-2009):
1,2,3,1,1,1,1,2,3,3 (Median = 1.5)
Draft Position of the FIRST Defensive Tackle drafted (2000-2009):
6,3,6,4,14,16,12,10,5,9 (Median = 7.5)
Draft Position of the SECOND Defensive Tackle drafted (2000-2009):
25,6,12,6,21,28,14,13,7,24 (Median = 13.5)
Draft Position of the FIRST Safety drafted (2000-2009):
34,37,8,16,5,34,7,6,31,33 (Median = 24.5)
Draft Position of the SECOND Safety drafted (2000-2009):
39,54,24,42,44,40,8,19,43,34 (Median = 39.5)
And, just for comparison...
Draft Position of FIRST Quarterback drafted (2000-2009):
18,1,1,1,1,1,3,1,3,1 (Median = 1)
Draft Position of FIRST 4-3 Defensive End drafted (2000-2009):
1,4,2,14,18,18,1,4,3,2 (Median = 4)
I forgot where I was going with these numbers, I like numbers, you can use them for the powerball, but anyway, how would you feel about the Lions taking Russell Okung?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Pride of Detroit or its writers. FanPosts are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable fans.
264 comments
|
4 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Those numbers show...
That for the average spot for the First DT to be taken is 7.5 and safety is 24.5 and this year we have 2 great players should go in the top 3. That means that these players are once in a long time players and one of them should be taken
The numbers also show that year after year great tackles come out so we can find a good tackle somewhere in the draft next year.
And how many of those players from 2000-2009 are in THIS draft?
Different year, different players. These are individuals, these are people, not robots. Every one is different. Schwartz has said he wants to draft the right PLAYER, the right PERSON, not draft the position. Those numbers mean nothing to Schwartz. I trust Schwartz.
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
I thought the "Chicago Board of Trade" reference was coming up there...
"Zack Follett: he will hurt your mind." - Pride Leader, Sean Yuille, wielder of the Ban Hammer.
2010 Wests Tigers : Current record - 1-0 : Current Position - 8th : Last game - Defeated Manly Sea Eagles 26 -22
by Hyperion Ecta on Mar 17, 2010 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions
These are PEOPLE, not COMMODITIES
This isn’t The Chicago Board of Trade.
Happy?
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
Yes
"Zack Follett: he will hurt your mind." - Pride Leader, Sean Yuille, wielder of the Ban Hammer.
2010 Wests Tigers : Current record - 1-0 : Current Position - 8th : Last game - Defeated Manly Sea Eagles 26 -22
by Hyperion Ecta on Mar 19, 2010 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Good post....
Only, I have a different vision for Okung….
Until Backus cannot play LT, Okung would instantly start at RT and it would be Godsner that would be the one shifting around along with providing a backup role.
BPA vs. Compensation vs. need…. Will the Lions pick Safety and make him the highest paid safety in the league? Will they pick a DT and make him one of the highest paid DT in the league? Or will the Lions pick a LT and make him one of the top 5 highest paid LT in the league?
Who knows?
WOOOOOOOOO
http://cmufootball.blogspot.com/
by CapitolLions on Mar 10, 2010 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
Unfortunately all signs point to no.
I’d love that setup, and would actually pull for us to take Okung if I knew that Gos would slide in. Unfortunately Schwartz calling Cherilus a ‘long, rangy guy’ and his praise for Backus completely convince me that we won’t be taking him barring a trade down or something.
I think LG will get addressed in draft...
before the end of round 3 and we’ll take a LT with our first pick next year, unless the LG solidifies our oline and is the missing piece. In that case, we may look RT in 2nd/3rd round next year depending on what Cherilus looks like after one more season.
by lions_sucker on Mar 10, 2010 10:12 PM EST up reply actions
Why would you want a LT that averages 10 sacks given up for 3 years now?
Equation= 1,2,2,3,3 is a lot better than 1,1,2,3 in a deep draft, especially when your 1 nets you E berry.
Alex Smith is not a bust, he is a product of poor management and coaching.
I think Okung is a need
but not worth the #2 pick based on other players available i.e. Suh & Berry. I am really expecting the FO to do its damnedest to trade down a few slots pick up a 2nd rounder and take Okung a few spots down. I picked the last option just because protecting the QB and allowing time for the passing game to develop improves this team to the umpteenth degree.
As You Know....
….I think Okung is the 3rd best Tackle available….yes hes a top 10 pick but hes not the best choice.
by BennieBladesFan on Mar 10, 2010 1:07 PM EST reply actions
Who do you have above him BBF? And why?
From any mock draft or NFL scouting site I have looked at Okung is ranked as the best prospect and is always mocked ahead of the other Tackles. I cannot remember seeing Okung as any lower than sixth.
In my opinion he is a much better prospect than the 2009 Tackle class and is up there with Joe Thomas. But then I am no expert on Offensive Line play.
Ive already posted on other topics.....
…..that I would take Davis from Rutgers first…..best footwork by far of the three guys I like….2nd would be Bryan Bulaga….Great techinue and comes from a pro system….3rd would be okung…..all good choice I just rate him 3rd.
by BennieBladesFan on Mar 10, 2010 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
I am not hearing much good about Davis' work ethic. He sounds like a Jason Peters clone to me.
Sorry, but anyone picked in the top five must be a guy who lives and breathes football and works his ass off to be the best. Bulaga and Okung fill that bill. Davis, not so much.
Where have you heard this about Davis?
by BennieBladesFan on Mar 10, 2010 4:18 PM EST up reply actions
1. Matt McGuire http://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2010adavis.php
2. NFP http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Davis-working-to-become-more-consistent.html
3. Wes Bunting http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Combines-weekend-sliders.html
4. Mocking the Draft http://www.mockingthedraft.com/2010/2
/5/1284810/anthony-davis-nfl-draft-scouting
5. SI/Tony Pauline http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/football/nfl/02/27/risers.sliders.oline/index.html
I have read other comments at other SB Sites and in some other sites that he did not interview well and has some red flags [small ones I think] regarding his character.
BBF, To be considered in the top ten means going under the microscope and frankly I don’t think those teams can afford to gamble at all. Too much money is at stake. See Jemarcus Russell, Charles Rogers.
Ryan Leif,
I had herd about his character issues but I didn’t pay alot of attention to them, since so many other players in the past have had “character” issues and have come into the league and been stellar players i.e. Moss, R. Lewis, M Irvin, I just thought it was all talk. But What those guys are saying is MORE than just character issues. Those are some heavy marks against him. He may slip to us in the 3rd round and he might even be a reach there, one of those risk/reward guys.
How many lumps you want Doc?
Just one other thing.......
None of these guys denies his talent or physical capability although he did not run well or lift well at the combine. I read a number of them that said “he could be the best Tackle in the draft.”
Guys he did work out.....but he looked terrible.
In the position drills, the lifting, the running, everything including the interviews.
Sort of reminds me of Andre Smith……except Davis did not take off.
Saw this today from Matt McGuire at WalterFootball.com
Link: http://walterfootball.com/mattblog100311.php
Ouch. That one will leave a mark.
uh ohhh
Bb you obviously research more than most. But I have to disagree whole heartedly on this one. Davis has proven in the past that mentally he is not there. I mean just today he wasn’t even going to show up for his pro day! They had to find him. At one time this guy was considered the best T prospect. But his play on and off the field has proved otherwise. And you think once he gets a fat check that he’s going to IMPROVE his work ethic?
You can have him.
I will listen to anyone who says Bulaga is better. But Okung is my guy. In a perfect world you take Suh. But you just invested 70 million dollars and you have no insurance plan. You have to get a LT. How you do it is the question…
by TheOriginalVoice on Mar 10, 2010 7:56 PM EST up reply actions
Worth considering
True or not, I find it hard to want Davis on my team. Especially when Okung,
Williams, Bulaga and Bruce Campbell are available.
by coolbreeze42 on Mar 11, 2010 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
I suspect I have been reviewing some of the same information as you n4ry4.
I am coming around on picking Okung at #2 or possibly after trading down a slot or two [no farther than fourth]. In my opinion he will provide the most long term value for Detroit by protecting our most important asset, Matt Stafford.
I have been covering myself by saying that Backus must be willing and able to shift to Left Guard, but I’ll come right out and say it…make Okung the pick and move around the O Line based on what the coaches thinks will work best now.
I will do a comparison of the compensation of our O LIne versus the rest of the league later this week. I’ll do it for the players we have now and see what it would look like with Russell Okung and his $10 Million per year salary.
Very good post n4ry4. I recced you.
Thanks NorthLeft. The more I think about the Corey Williams trade, the less likely I think the Suh pick is, and I just don’t see a $30 million-guaranteed rookie safety under the salary cap, but from what I’ve seen of Berry, it wouldn’t shock me all that much.
I don’t think I’d be surprised by any of these three picks—maybe they actually DO want to have an excellent rotation of three starting-quality DT’s instead of just two.
I’d like to see that comparison of O-Line pay levels.
Hey that's a timeout, I can play right? yeah, get me--get the F-- Help me up...I can throw the ball if you need me to throw the ball...
Okay.....here is a preview.
Detroit’s O Line [Ten players:Backus, Cherilus, Cook, Gandy, Jansen, Loper, Muhlbach, Peterman, Raiola, Ramirez] currently are paid $22.4 Million per year.
If you add Okung’s expected salary of around $10M and take out one of the current guys, I’ll pick Ramirez at $1.1M, you get a total salary of $31.3 Million for around 30% of the Lions total payroll.
That is a lot of bread.
I cant wait till .....
Backus and Raiola retire, there making combined, almost 10 million a year !! We could get 2 top end lineman with that and the loss of Ramirez !!!
Unfortunately
I do somewhat agree. But I disagree about FA. Not that I wouldnt love to see it possible but It’s easy to say “Go get them via free agency”…If it were that easy they’d of done it allready I belive. But consider this. Lets put you as the GM of lets say the Packers…are you going to just let a top notch lineman just walk? And if there ever is that kind of lineman available..like a Steve Hutchinson type available. A team like the Lions will have to throw DOUBLE the money at him. Now lets put you in his shoes. If you were him and a little more older player around 30 or so would you wanna come here and maybe make the playoffs at best under a rebuilding term or a team like NYJets that are already more established and much closer to a SB?
I have a little different take on drafting Berry.
Forget the payroll issue, any of these guys at any position is going to be painful. The #2 pick gets a hell of a lot of money and the Lions’ finances will be difficult to manage.
Consider the leadership issue in the secondary. Delmas appears to be our current and future leader back there. What will happen when the new kid, the #2 draft pick new kid comes on the scene? I would rather see us draft a young leader for the D Line [Suh or McCoy] or a young leader for the O Line [Okung] at that early pick. Grab a complementary player to Delmas like Reshad Jones or Darrell Stuckey in Round Three. I think that will be a great tandem.
USC Mays? late 1st round...
…..If he’s still avail when the Lions pick 2 in the 2nd then yes they’d be damn fools not to pick him. At 6’4’’ 220, He’s a linebacker playing safety much like Urlacher was in college. If that happens consider the Leo’s secondary set for at least the next 5 years.
Delmas is already a leader of this defense and a safety that we are building the defense around
Both can be leaders, if that’s what they want. A team needs lots of leaders. We’ve had too many teams here with no real leaders. I find it ridiculous to suggest drafting a lesser player instead of Berry so that we don’t have “too many leaders”. Now THAT’S a culture of losing.
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
I think either way will be great
I like Reshad Jones alot, would like to see him in the 3rd myself.
I’ve said in a different thread before that I believe the contrary, that if we were to take Berry, you would see exponential production. The type of tandem we have in Staff and Megatron, for example, doesn’t take a hit because they’re both stars. I understand they play complemantary positions, but to say that two guys who have individual but nearly equal responsibilities would have issues with both being very talented seems ridiculous to me. If anything, they would both excel and appreciate the fact that the guy playing opposite them is taking care of business, leaving them to just do THEIR job as best as possible.
Exponential.
I don't think I am saying this properly....I don't think they are Prima Donnas but....
We have our leader and star in the secondary. Having a second superstar Safety strikes me as a bit of overkill, almost reminds me of the two #1 WR theory that the GM who shall not be named tried to implement here.
Let’s have leaders in different parts of this team. I don’t see this exponential increase in productivity. An NFL team has finite resources. I think we should spread them out through the team into the units within the team.
I have to agree [sort of] here with GRL, Delmas is the unquestioned leader of this defence and we need players that will complement him and adopt his persona.
WRs have to share one ball, though
which leads to egos clashing. Two safeties have more than enough players to defend, so nobody’s really trampling on anyone else’s territory.
After all the losing teams we've seen here.........
Having great players is not overkill, especially on defense. Trysdor makes a good point.
It’s ridiculous to suggest that we don’t want too many great players. As for Delmas, he is the leader, proving wrong the naysayers who said “you can’t build your team around a safety and can’t have a safety lead the defense”. We once had Bennie Blades, who when drafted #3 proved wrong the naysayers that said “you can’t draft a safety in the top 3” (ironic, since one of those people uses his name). In fact, Louis Delmas and Bennie Blades are excellent rebuttals to all the arguments against Berry.
Schwartz says
“When this defense is good, it’ll be because it plays with the personality of Louis Delmas.”
Schwartz wants more players like Delmas, not less………….and certainly not more of the same Paris Lenons we had before.
Schwartz wants the BPA that fits. We don’t get great by settling for less.
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
I would not be using Bennie as proof a Safety is good value at # 3.
In nine years for the Lions he had twelve interceptions, four sacks, one safety, and nine forced fumbles. A fair number of tackles early in his career, around a hundred a year , but tailed off fairly quickly.
LINK: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BladBe00.htm
I watched the Lions through that time and I never thought of him as a leader. Chris Spielman and Jerry Ball were the real playmakers on that defence, not Blades. Blades was definitely not the dominant Safety of that time. He was not good value at pick # 3.
Aundray Bruce was picked #1 that year
Bennie was better. We can go backl and forth on good picks and bad picks and better picks and worse picks. Hindsight is 20-20. Bennie was a good player. Bottom line, you have to make smart choices. If Berry IS the dominant safety, pick him because of that……..don’t pass on him because you don’t want “too many great players”.
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
I want great players who will impact the game and make this team better.
A great LT or a great DT will do more for this team than a second great safety. IMO.
Hey lefty
First off you forgot about Porchette, he was as muck a leader on those teams as Jerry (bad Back) Ball. But I always loved Jerry so I just wanted to throw Porchette in the conversation. 2 What kind of D did the lions play back then think secondery, they were not a press coverage we played more zone and the job of our 2 safeties was to make sure no one got behind them back then not get up on the line and make plays. Remember Blades and White BOTH went to different teams and played at high levels for quite a few years one for the Seahawks and Blades I beleave played for the bronco’s with crockette. I do agree that Kong would be more of an impact player at the 2 spot for us but I also agree with GRLion that Berry would be a better fit for our team for years to come, especially with our piss poor corners that we still have on our roster AT THIS POINT. Now if we go out and draft 2 bad ass CB’s in the draft, then Berry probably wouldn’t be as needed as say Kong, but what are the odds of us drafting 2 starting corners in the same draft?
How many lumps you want Doc?
davis, I liked Porcher a lot too. One of my favourite Lions.
He did not become a regular starter until 1994, six years after Bennie was drafted. Spielman was drafted the same year as Blades and Ball was going into his second season. Some half decent drafts back then.
but what are the odds of us drafting 2 starting corners in the same draft?
Funny you should ask that. Two teams have done that the last two drafts. In 2008 the Chiefs drafted Brandon Flowers [rd 2] and Brandon Carr [rd 5] and they have pretty much started every game since. In 2009 the Dolphins got Vontae Davis [rd1] and Sean Smith [rd2]. Smith started from day one, Davis about halfway through. So yeah, it could be done.
I’ll be very surprised if the Lions draft Eric Berry. It is possible but I believe they still value the position the player is in, and a Safety is not as critical to a team’s success as a good LT or even DT.
I was remembering many years ago
when we drafted Westbrook(?) and someone else in the same year and our 1 starter was a snot knocker that blew his achilies and was never the same,Hm I beleave we got rid of him to Dallas as well.
How many lumps you want Doc?
No, a great safety will do more than a great DT
Plus, Eric Berry is the BPA, and BPA that fits. Berry wins, 3-0.
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
Davis
Blades played one season for Seattle in 1997…..then retired. He only played there so that he could team up with his older brother for a year. He did not play very well.
Blades played 8 years for the Lions from 1988 to 1996. He is best remembered for his speed, power, ability, and stand-out defensive play at his position. He is also remembered for taunting and intidmidating opposing players. Most of his reputation came from his college days at Miami…..he was pretty much average as a pro. He had 14 INTs and one TD over 9 years in the NFL. He made the pro bowl in 1991…..and that was his most dominant season. It also happens to be the best season I can remember as a Lions fan, the year we got blew out in the NFC Championship by Washington.
Bennie Blades was a good player…..but I would not say he warranted being picked at #3. That said, he was nowhere near as fast, versatile, or talented as Eric Berry is…..which is why I can say in all honesty that I believe Berry could be worth a top 5 pick, regardless of the present trend of not picking players from his position in the top 5, and regardless of what we would have to pay him at pick 2. However, I still believe Suh will be our pick at #2 if he does not go #1 to the Rams.
Oh you didn't know?? You're ass better CALLLLLLLL SOMEBODY!!!!!
Good comment, KDawg
Thanks for setting the record straight on a fine Lion, Bennie Blades…….and an even more fast, versatile, talented player in Eric Berry.
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
I still want Berry
But I could of swore he played longer than that after he left the lions. And I thought he played in Denver after Seattle. But that was actually Crockette. Had to look it up after you posted this.
How many lumps you want Doc?
I voted skeptical
I think Trent Williams is a more complete LT. Neither are as good as Eugene Monroe
I was anti-Stafford @ #1 last year, and I’m anti-Okung @ #2 this year. I just don’t see him as BPA over Suh, Berry, or McClain. It would be a reach and just a need over BPA choice
Okung will probably be the pick, will tear it up, and I’ll look even dumber than I already do.
This is why
the Lions are in such a good position. Your post is very true about building a winning team, thus not getting a great LT early in the draft in future years. But this is one of those years where there is an all world DT and Safety. Lions cannot make a bad choice with any of those picks. THe only way they can screw up is to trade #2 pick and miss out on all 3. And I hope that doesn’t happen.
I think if the Lions do trade down it will be because they can still get the guy they want, and pick up extra picks in the process. I agree that it would be a hard pill to swallow to pass on all three, but there is something to be said about more picks.
by october-lion on Mar 10, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
OKUNG
is not that good. he looks good in shorts but who cares. He is not even the best tackle in the draft. We could draft a center and move the center to guard as well. I feel that is an easier position change.
This talk of Okung
Just brings me back to last years draft when we took Grew instead of Oher. I like Grew and think he brings something special, but I wish we would have taken Oher last year. This wouldn’t even have to be a worry of ours.
hindsight is 20/20
if everybody knew how good Oher would be, he would’ve gone no. 2 instead of Jason Smith. There are players in every draft that nobody knew would be as successful as they are.
It also could be
that Smith does not have the help inside that Oher has, I meen I can’t say that I am aware of the talent playing next to these guys either.Or it could be a system issue as well were they playing in a zone blocking system that does not fit their strengths I just don’t know.
How many lumps you want Doc?
Oher has Ben Grubbs next to him
Definitely a solid (has made at least one Pro Bowl) guard, along with Matt Birk at C. His side of the line is stacked.
Apparently Jason Smith has this John Greco character, and….. absolutely no one in the RG slot, according to Yahoo!’s depth chart. That should give you some idea.
Oher’s learning disability self-admittedly scared Detroit off… IMO a good reason not to take a player. If the guy we picked @ 20 would have been a bust or something I would be more upset, but they made a sound decision based on something that counts. It’s all good to me.
I read that the Lions were concerned about his learning disability and thought that it would hinder his ability to develop.
There were a few other teams that flagged him because of that. Obviously, since he passed all the way down to the Patriots at #23. The Ravens had him around #9 on their board and made the jump up.
I’m coming around more to drafting a LT, idk which tackle would be the best though.
I def don’t want to pay a safety that much money, i don’t have the exact numbers but the deal Rolle just signed was around 7M, so Barry would deserve almost twice that much? I don’t think so…
As far as taking a DT that earlier, i’m not comparing players from the past, but the history of drafting DTs in the top 3 doesn’t have a good track record. Also, I saw somewhere that the contract Williams is under is worth a good bit, when u include Vanden Bosch’s contract. That’s an awful lot of money tied into the D-Line if u added in Suh.
http://walterfootball.com/nfldraftpicks.php
Ultimately i don’t mind if it’s a DT or LT, either would be an upgrade.
Leaning towards Okung
I’m really worried about Staffords health, our running game and the DLines in the NFC North. I suspect that we will take Okung if we keep the 2nd pick.
I’m hoping that someone wants our 2 spot to Get Suh if he’s available. This is a real possiblity since Tampa Bay will grab Suh if he’s available. Also there are several good LT’s available for the 1st round and this is a very deep draft for defense.
Two weeks ago, I wanted Suh or Berry. With our new players… we need to rethink how the draft should play out.
Good Read
I was pleasantly surprised to find such a nice read on our message boards. I gotta say I am a bit torn between who to take here, though I’m still probably leaning towards Suh. If the Rams do take Suh at no. 1 (doubtful) then Okung would be my choice. I just know if we take Suh we will have a BEASTLY front 7, and all of a sudden our issues against the run will be non-existent.
But, damn, we DO need help on the O-line, something that we so far have made no additions to. I guess maybe in my ideal world we take Suh and then figure out a way to turn our second-rounder into a late first and pick up Mike Iuptapi(sp?) from Idaho.
Can someone find out a way for us to draft Suh, Berry and Okung.
That would be a fun fan post. lets see if anyone has a crazy plan for that.
Got it (but you wouldn't like it--at least I don't)
Trade Calvin Johnson to Tampa Bay for their 1st, 2nd, and 4th.
Trade both of our 2nd picks (ours + TB’s), our third-round pick, and next year’s first to Washington for the #4 overall pick.
The draft looks like this:
1. St Louis – Bradford
2. Detroit – Suh
3. Detroit – Okung
4. Detroit – Berry
Now, we don’t pick again until the 4th round, we lost our best player, and we don’t have a first-round pick next year. But we bought into the hype of the moment and got the best players in this year’s draft, so hey!
Of course, no GM in his right mind would trade a proven elite player and this many draft picks for two unproven rookies, but we could make it happen.
Hey that's a timeout, I can play right? yeah, get me--get the F-- Help me up...I can throw the ball if you need me to throw the ball...
I would do it
whats out there next year that we absolutly need in the first if we get all three. but who could afford that.
by Motown_Soldier on Mar 10, 2010 6:15 PM EST up reply actions
Just wondering
Am I the only one that wants to trade next years #1 to get back in the first round this year? This draft is extremely deep, next year, not so much, I say get back in the first this year.
I think we should ..
If we trade our # 2 down and for the Bills two 1st rounders we could take someone like Iupati and Bulaga. Trade next years for say #20 in the first and a 4th. We get Kyle Wilson and with our 2nd rounder take Robinson. 3rd round take M. Rolle and 4th we could take O-line or if its not a reach depending on where the team thinks someone else might take him Blount at RB. That would look nice next year i think. We could even trade the #9 pick from the Bills to maybe get another 2nd rounder who i would love to take Pouncy with. Sign Lilja and we have a whole new line and a much stronger D.
Now your talking JOEY
Especially if the Browns are successful at getting rid of Brady (BUST) Quinn. Holmgrim is going to want a QB since I can’t see Wallace being a starter. We could easily move down to the 7 spot and get extra pick(s) for this draft in early rounds.
How many lumps you want Doc?
It is doubtful that you will get a first round pick for next years first round.
You might get one of the last four picks in the first round if you are lucky and since we pick at #34 anyway, whats the point?
If we stay at #2 ...
I say pull the trigger on Okung. 70 million is at stake if not. What do you all think about signing Lilja, Okung at LT, move Butt-suck to RT and trade our current RT for say a late 2nd or 3rd and 5th or something decent at least ? I think we would get way more production out of the line since Backus is a better run blocker and would not be facing the elite pass rushers in the league as much. The extra pick would give us more to add to our ailing defense.
Why not
do most of what you just said except move Gosdner to guard, he’s big enough and has a mean streak so put him at LG, and again I don’t want to move Mr. complacement to RT cause it’s a whole different game on the other side of the line.Put Okung at RT for a year to get his feet wet.
How many lumps you want Doc?
Cherilus...
is not a guard. He doesn’t have the right build, he is a tackle only. Backus is the only guy who we could move around to guard.
by lions_sucker on Mar 10, 2010 10:19 PM EST up reply actions
Why would you say that????
Backus has only ever played LT since his college days so why would it be easier for him to move. Gosdner is younger and stronger.
How many lumps you want Doc?
Yes, please explain why you would say that.
Like davis, I am interested to know what could prevent a player from moving from Tackle to Guard. In my mind Gosder is bigger than Backus and is more of a “road grader” type blocker who would probably fit into the interior more successfully than Backus.
I think Schwartz believes Backus can play Guard more easily than Cherilus
(Schwartz) reiterated his end-of-season comments about Backus having a Pro Bowl-caliber season at left tackle and being the team’s most consistent run-blocker. But he also left the door open, just in case.
“He can play left tackle, he can play left guard,” Schwartz said. “If that’s something he ends up doing, I think he could do either one. But I have a lot of comfort level with him — we all do — from the standpoint of he’s very, very consistent, he’s very durable. … You add all those things up, you’ll find a place for that guy to play.”
As for Cherilus possibly moving inside? Schwartz pretty much shot that notion down right away.
“He’s a tall, rangy guy,” Schwartz said. “I don’t know. I think he’s a tackle. I think he’s a good right tackle. He’s still a little bit of a developing player. But I don’t think we’re at the point where we’re looking at him as anything other than a tackle.”
From The Detroit News: http://apps.detnews.com/apps/blogs/lionsblog/index.php?blogid=2018#ixzz0hsCoAbgH
Hey that's a timeout, I can play right? yeah, get me--get the F-- Help me up...I can throw the ball if you need me to throw the ball...
Six foot seven inches and three hundred and twenty-five pounds is rangy? LOL
I’ll take Schwartz’s word for it as he works with the guy every day. I just know that if one of the Engineers I worked with was 6’ 7" and plus 320 pounds rangy is not what I would use to describe him. Gargantuan and monstrous come to mind.
I guess that just shows the difference between our world and the NFL world.
I also appreciate Schwartz’s diplomacy in supporting a young developing player by not speculating about moving him to another position. The guy is just so freaking smart about everything and really gets how to handle people IMO.
I think we would all like to have a boss like him.
by NorthLeft12 on Mar 11, 2010 10:01 AM EST up reply actions
Size...
is not all it takes to play guard. There’s a reason why people who can play multiple spots on the oline are valuable. Even all-pro LT may not be able to play LG, you match up against completely different players and have different responsibilities.
I’m going off Schwartz’s comments plus the fact that Gosder is more tall than big, in an NFL sense. He matches up well against D-ends but would get knocked off of his block by a guy that is his same weight but is 2-3 inches taller and therefor has lower leverage on him.
by lions_sucker on Mar 12, 2010 10:18 AM EST up reply actions
Thanks for clarifying that!
I was wondering about that.
by coolbreeze42 on Mar 12, 2010 7:53 PM EST up reply actions
I agree 100% on Gosder ...
What do you think of this. Draft Okung, sign Lilja or Pitts. Move Backus to RT and trade Gosder for a draft pick. Backus is a much better run blocker the pass blocker. He would also give up less sacks, facing lower talent on that side of the line.
If we draft Okung
That would be a good idea, but I can’t see Schwartz sliding Backus to RT and putting a younger faster tackle on the bench and then what would we do with the ROCK Jansen? Carry 3 RT’s on the team???? We did just resign him and I can’t see us drafting a LT and not starting him and I also can’t see us Sitting a 10 million dollar LT on the bench, so try to come up with 1 more better idea on what to do if we draft Okung. Just flat out cutting Backus would be a better idea than sliding him over to RT. Maybe make him restructure his contract would be a possible also but sliding him to RT has got to be out of the question.
How many lumps you want Doc?
As an outsider...
I say Big Suh if he’s there.
Okung if he’s not. I don’t understand some of ya’ll with the jibberish that Okung is not the best OK in this draft…he’s a better prospect then Jason Smith last year.
Suh is too good to pass up, but I dunno about McCoy.
DT and CB are very deep in this draft. LT is not. So that 2nd and 3rd rounder could have a BPA at DT and CB, but I doubt that there’s a LT that would be a BPA there.
Master of the squeegee
Welcome back, FB
Good point too. I’m starting to warm up to taking Okung…. I just can’t get myself to believe that Schwartz has any intention on taking him.
Freebradshaw, does this mean you're retracting your prediction (on the Mocking the Draft page, prediction thread) that the Lions pass on Suh and draft Berry at #2?
If so, that leaves me in the money as the only remaining one to predict that.
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
From
http://www.mockingthedraft.com/2010/1/15/1253710/the-all-knowing-test-your-wits
Even with Suh on the board The Lions draft Eric Berry
You’ve got to be very careful if you don’t know where you are going, because you might not get there
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 27, 2010 4:36 PM EST
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
Yea, I'd retract from that.
I’ll even retract from the Suh thing too! For real, I don’t think you can go wrong with Berry, Suh or Okung.
But I think that the depth of DT and S (and CB if you want that)..as well as the lack of depth of LT and the importance of getting an elite LT for Staff, is a big need.
I’m still laughing tho at those that don’t think Okung is the top OT. Its basically Okung, then everyone else in this class. If Joe Thomas and Jake Long are 98’s coming out of college, Okung’s a 95. Jason Smith’s a 91. (just to throw some Maddenish ratings out there)
DWTDD
by FreeBradshaw on Mar 21, 2010 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Also the positional value
of LT vs DT vs S, places Okung as the true BPA.
So the Lions “BPA mantra”..actually, is Okung.
DWTDD
by FreeBradshaw on Mar 21, 2010 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, but that is not the way people here want that to work.
BPA is actually a misnomer. It should be Best Value Available, which takes the positional value into account when trying to rate the players.
by NorthLeft12 on Mar 21, 2010 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
And it’s fairly easy to argue that the Lions followed a BVA (Best Value Available) strategy last year by their selection of Stafford. Why is it so hard for people to think the Lions could draft in a similar fashion and select Okung 2nd overall?
That's not what Schwartz says
He wants to draft the best player, not the position. He wants the BPA that fits. If you want to know what Schwartz is going to do, listen to Schwartz.
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
Here's what Schwartz says
“When talk about that slot and how much money it’s going to take, it’s a different animal,‘’ Schwartz said. "I’ve said before, we want to make sure we get the right person there, not necessarily lock into a particular position. The mistakes I’ve seen made in the NFL are ‘Hey, we have to draft a running back here,’ Or ‘We have to draft an offensive line or a quarterback.’ I think a better philosophy is to let your hand play out. Try to get the right player, not necessarily the right position.’’
I started my career in scouting. I know the times when you’re tempted to say we need to help this side of the ball or this position; generally, that’s a poor strategy.
…
If we stick with that rather than saying, ‘Hey we need this piece, we need to get Player X at this position,’ then you’re reaching and passing other guys on the board and you’re passing talent. Maybe a really good team can afford to do that. Say you have just one hole on your team and you really need to fill that one hole; you can pass a player or take a cornerback who is maybe a step below another position. But over the long term, I don’t think that’s a very good strategy. You have to take talent in the draft.
“Let’s not just stop at defensive tackle: We’ll get a good player,” Lions coach Jim Schwartz said Thursday at the NFL scouting combine in Indianapolis. "That’s the most important thing, rather than on Feb. 25 saying, ‘We have to take a defensive tackle,’ or ‘We have to take whatever position.’
“Last year at this time, we were saying the same kind of thing: ‘Look, we’re not saying we’re definitely drafting a quarterback.
Hey, look, let the whole thing play out. Let’s take the best player. If that happens to be a quarterback, then let’s do it.’”
And now?
“You could probably say the same thing about defensive tackle,” Schwartz said. “Let’s not make our mind up right now. It seems like everybody already has. … Let’s let everything play out. Let’s let all the information be brought. Let’s make a good decision on that.”
From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20100226/SPORTS0101/2260379/Lions—Jim-Schwartz-won-t-be-hogtied-into-drafting-a-tackle#ixzz0j6g3Guua
"If you say, ‘Okay, this is the one area that needs the most (improvement),’ you can get backtracked a little bit. You can make so many attempts to improve that area that you neglect other areas of the team and things like that. I think I’ll just keep that the same way: we have enough needs at all positions on this team and there are issues at every different position that we need to address. When you’re building a football team, I don’t know that you can wait those things out. I don’t know that you can say, ‘Hey, the secondary is more important than the defensive line which is more important than this other (position).’
"At some point I’m not going to say this anymore, but our No. 1 need is talent," Schwartz said. "I think that other than quarterback, I’d be surprised if at any point in the draft we pass talent for what would be considered a need.
That’s what I hear. That’s what Schwartz is saying. Can you find any quotes where Schwartz talks about “positional value” and favoring one position over another? I’ll be waiting.
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
I've read all the same things...
But I’m still hearing different things. Last year, they selected Matthew Stafford 1st overall, although the concensus BPA was Aaron Curry. Based upon the quotes above I still see no evidence that “all signs” point to Eric Berry, as you’ve previously attempted to preach on these message boards.
I think Okung is the best choice, you think Berry is the best choice, and most others think Suh is the only choice, . I’m not going to change your opinion, and you won’t change mine. And honestly, that’s fine. We both share a passion for the Lions. We’re just hearing different things…
by BriansLions on Mar 24, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Who's the best LT next year?.......They'll make more, no need to be impatient
We need a LG now and a LT in a couple years (Backus signed through 2012, and Schwartz likes him). The obvious, common sense thing is to get a LG now and a LT in a couple years. Schwartz has said he wants to draft the best player, not the position……so the “positional value” theory is out the window. He’s said he wants the “BPA that fits”……that’s actually Berry.
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
davis
If we get a extra pick or say 3rd and 4th we might be able to move up to the 2nd, taking pouncy with our orginal 2nd or the " new " 2nd rounder. Still being able to add defensive talent and O-line. I am not against Okung getting his feet wet at RT although he is better at pass blocking and Backus is better at run blocking…I would leave that to the coaches, i actually trust them.
Really i want to trade down...
If we can split our #2 in a trade to the bills two 1st rounders or something similar in trades. We could drop down the #9 overall a 2nd time and pick up another 2nd rounder…If we pick close together in the mid – late mid 1st round we could get Iupati and Bulaga. Still have two 2nd rounders and possibly trade off Gosdner and peterman. I would think after that we would be looking pretty good with all those pics in position.
I love your posts n4
You bring up the same points that I’ve been thinking about these past few weeks. Okung is becoming more attractive as a selection, but there are negatives. And we still have 40+ days to go until the decision is made….it’s gonna be a long wait.
The Bringers of Hope: Stafford - Delmas - C. Johnson - Pettigrew - Levy - Hill - Schwartz
Zack Follett: he will hurt your mind.
Great, great post
I think they’ll take Suh or Berry for the things that were mentioned under the “What I don’t like about picking Okung” section. I’m just not sure it can be justified that he’s in the same class as Suh or Berry. Maybe he is… I don’t know.
I will never “boo” a pick, so I chose the third option in the poll. I’d be happy with a stud left tackle if that’s what they deem him to be.
The only thing I disagree with – and I PROMISE this is not a slam at those wanting Berry – is that you CAN find a safety with a mid to late first round pick. Your stats prove that. And this IS another reason I think the value of Suh and possibly Okung is probably worth more than Berry. Just my opinion….
Drew, that's true ... this year is a deep draft defensively and a lot of good S and CBs out there to be had in 2nd round
Suh
Defensive Back
OLine
or
Okung
Defensive Back
Other
either would work for a team with needs like the Lions … or my Chiefs
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
Whitlock Rocks!
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!
but are they GREAT?
There are also DT’s to be had later…….and we already traded for Corey Williams. The pieces are falling into place. Schwartz drafts the player, not the position. If Schwartz feels that Eric Berry is better than Suh or Okung or that other hyped “Flavor of the Month” who couldn’t outbench Kyle Wilson, then he’ll pick Berry. Schwartz will make the smart pick, not the hyped or popular one. All the hype and all the screaming won’t stop him.
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
very good post, insightful and has both good and bad points to ponder about the selection
over at AP we Chiefs fans have been going thru much the same discussions as you guys here at PoD, except that know for a fact Suh will be long gone by our #5 pick, so we talk about Okung and Berry and others …
Okung could well be the best LT in a long time … and there’s not much more important guy than LT on the OLine because he’s the guy who keeps the QB alive … LT has to be more mobile than LG, has to play “in space” more and be “more athletic” in general … Okung is that guy
Bulaga, from what I’ve read, isn’t … short arms and not as polished, not as strong as Okung … nor is Iupati, strong but not as polished, and got hammered in the Senior Bowl, looked awful that day … Davis has been getting good reviews and can also play guard, he’ll go late 1st I think, or early 2nd … Campbell from Maryland is very strong but very unploished, 2nd round at best, but looks like good project player for a team needing someone in the future … Charles Brown of USC looks like a low 1st rounder, would be a fine addition if he’s there in 2nd, as would Davis if he falls that far
for true G position, I like Ducasse and Petrus, both 2nd or maybe as low as 3rd round … Iupati is off my radar at this point … Thomas Austin of Clemson can do both G and C, would be a good 2nd or maybe 3rd round addition
just some OLine thoughts of my own …
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
Whitlock Rocks!
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!
+1
Well said. Russell Okung’s biggest problem among POD’ers is that his name isn’t Ndamukong Suh (or Eric Berry :). And the argument that “he’s not even the best Left Tackle in this draft” doesn’t hold alot of water after the Combine. Okung has almost everything you’d look for in a franchise Left Tackle.
According to NFL.com’s Jason La Canfora on March 10th, Oklahoma State LT Russell Okung is “high on the Lions’ radar.”
It’s been assumed that Detroit will use the No. 2 overall pick on a defensive tackle, but La Canfora says “protecting Matthew Stafford (is) a top priority” for GM Martin Mayhew. The idea makes sense after all the hits Stafford took in 2009, although it remains to be seen if Mayhew would go against his draft board. Nebraska’s Ndamukong Suh is widely believed to be rated higher.
The end goal here is to turn the Detroit Lions into a Super Bowl champion, and Russell Okung would be a great step in that direction. As euphoric as the idea of adding Suh to our defensive line is, Okung should be the pick.
Yep yep yep!
I been posting it here since after the SB. The pick NEEDS to be Okung. If Suh is gone Okung is the most logical choice for a few reasons. For some reason the phrase ‘filling a need’ has become a dirty phrase here on this board. But I’ll say it anyways. Okung fills a need on the OL. Backus and Raiola are a year older and won’t be around much longer. You just invested millions in a new QB last year. What good is he if his leg needs to be extracted from his ass after every game? We’ll never really know how good Stafford is until the line can open holes for the run and give him more than 2 seconds to make a decision and an accurate throw. The next logical reason is that the money Okung will make as the 2nd pick is reasonable to what a top OT would make anyways. Spending an insane amount on a Safety that isn’t named Reed but will make more money than Reed and is ONLY compared to Reed doesn’t seem like sound money management. The other reason Okung is a logical choice and one that hasn’t been brought up on this board is that Okung and Pettegrew at one time worked very well together at Ok.State. They were considered quite the dominant force on that left outside as far as blocking went.
His name also isn't Backus, who has the job
Schwartz seems to like Backus for now, and Schwartz is the one who gave “need” a bad name, by wanting to draft the BPA that fits, the right player, not the position. Schwartz and Mayhew are also the ones who make the decision……….not the media, not the fans.
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
+1
If we would have drafted for NEED last year and grabbed a LT instead of drafting GREW then I would think that our FO would be looking at a LT this year, in terms of drafting position. If he was as worried about Backus not being good enough at LT then he would have drafted LT last year when we had 2 picks in the first round. But he didn’t he likes what we have up front at least at the tackle position. I wont be shocked if we draft Okung but I still want Berry or Kong at the 2 spot assuming that we don’t trade that pick away.
How many lumps you want Doc?
A dose of reality
Alot of Lions fans and Lions management don’t understand that whoever dominates and controls the line of scrimmage wins in the NFL. If the front office understood that they’d of built an offensive line before they even thought of drafting another QB.Sorry if that ruffles feathers or you don’t like the truth. Theres a reason teams like the Pats and the Packers and Steelers aren’t bad for long. They understand you build a team from the LINES on out and draft accordingly. I know Okung isn’t the glamourous flashy eyecandy pick this town loves, but it’s the right one. Passing on Oher last year was a mistake and passing on Okung this year would be another.
Hard to ruffle feathers
When I agree with you, I couldn’t understand why we didn’t address the lines last year, But I have all the faith in this FO and coaching staff in who ever they do bring in here.
How many lumps you want Doc?
If the front office understood that they’d of built an offensive line before they even thought of drafting another QB.Sorry if that ruffles feathers or you don’t like the truth. Theres a reason teams like the Pats and the Packers and Steelers aren’t bad for long.
I don’t know that using the Packers, Pats and Steelers is a good argument for drafting a Left Tackle high. The last time the Packers won the Super Bowl, it was with second-round LT Bruce Wilkerson. Most of the seasons since then, they’ve had second-rounder Chad Clifton at LT. The Steelers won their past two Super Bowls with second- and third-round drafted Left Tackles Marvel Smith and Max Starks. The Patriots made all their Super Bowls with second-round Left Tackle Matt Light.
I guess the Packers, Patriots, and Steelers are a good argument that you don’t have to draft a Left Tackle in the top-5, but if you’re a smart franchise, you can get one in the second round.
Also, are you saying we shouldn’t have drafted Stafford #1 last year because of our questionable O-Line, or just that we should have taken Oher over Pettigrew at #20? Hindsight is 20/20, so it’s easy to second-guess the Pettigrew pick (but there’s still plenty of time to see who becomes a better pro—Oher or Pettigrew), but I think when you draft a QB, it’s not so he doesn’t get sacks his first year, but rather so he can lead your team for the next 10 or 15 years. If Matthew Stafford was the right guy to lead the Lions (and I think he is), they should have drafted him, not reached for a tackle at #1 and said “this kid can lead our franchise for years, but we have to draft in order of need today, so let’s reach for a tackle”. I’m glad they didn’t do that.
I’m not against Okung—I think he really is #2 pick worthy, but I don’t think he’s the only possible good pick at #2 either. I would understand and be totally happy if they took Suh or Berry.
Hey that's a timeout, I can play right? yeah, get me--get the F-- Help me up...I can throw the ball if you need me to throw the ball...
Oher as #20
Oher was thought of as inconsistant last year. If everybody knew he would turn out as a starter for both RT and LT, then he would of went before Jason Smith.
by coolbreeze42 on Mar 20, 2010 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions
I would love to trade back with Washington to # 4 and still pick up Okung.
But fantasy trades aside, I think Okung works as the #2 pick too.
Left Tackles are perceived by most fans as not being “playmakers”. They do not have gaudy stats to show off, ie. tackles, sacks, INTs, TDs, yards gained, etc. They allow the most important player on the team to make those plays, and also allow the running game to flourish. They have negative plays allowed as their stat line. ie. penalties, sacks allowed, QB hits and pressures allowed.
But there is no doubting their value in the NFL. Their draft position and pay are the obvious indicators of that.
That's the ideal scenario
If we’re able to trade back, still get Okung, and add a high 2nd round pick, that sounds almost too good to be true. I have previously believed that Mayhew’s chances of trading out of the 2nd pick were highly unlikely, but with all the teams in the top 10 who are in need of quarterbacks, I’m starting to think there just might be some movement at the top of the draft. Cleveland just joined the list of QB-needy teams this week, as well.
by BriansLions on Mar 11, 2010 10:38 AM EST up reply actions
Ok.....I would HATE this pick.....
but not because I do not think that Russell Okung is the best LT in this draft, or that I do not think he is elite. I think the earliest Okung will be drafted is pick 4, by Washington. Washington could also be thinking Berry. I also think that whoever the Redskins take at 4 will determine who the Chiefs take at 5……as i believe it will be one or the other of Okung and Berry at that pick. In all honesty, without bias toward which player i would most like to see us draft, these are the ways I can see the top 5 panning out:
Scenario 1:
1 – Bradford
2 – Clausen (Lions trade down, out of the top 5……suitors are CLE, SEA, and SF)
3 – Suh
4 – Okung
5 – Berry
Scenario 2:
1 – Bradford
2 – Suh (Lions stay put and draft the DT)
3 – McCoy
4 – Okung
5 – Berry
Scenario 3:
1 – Suh (the Rams stick with Bulger and Boller and go with the DT)
2 – Berry (the Lions stay put and draft the BPA with Suh gone)
3 – McCoy, Bradford, or Clausen (if Suh and Berry went 1 and 2, Tampa would be in a great position to deal with CLE, SEA, or SF to trade down….however, if no deal can be made they will draft McCoy)
4 – Bradford or Clausen (the Redskins, and Shannahan, really want another QB)
5 – Okung
There may be other scenarios……but I have to get some work done.
Oh you didn't know?? You're ass better CALLLLLLLL SOMEBODY!!!!!
Scenario 4:
1 – Bradford, Rams
2 – Okung, Lions
3 – Suh, Buccaneers
4 – Clausen, Redskins
5 – Baluga, Chiefs
If no trades happen, this is how I see it shaking out…
by BriansLions on Mar 11, 2010 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
KDawg...
If you think Okung is an elite LT prospect, then what makes you say that you would “hate” it if the Lions selected him 2nd overall? The Lions need to do a better job of protecting their franchise QB, and if Okung is elite, then that’s a big step towards accomplishing just that.
by BriansLions on Mar 11, 2010 12:50 PM EST up reply actions
Because I prefer Suh or Berry and I think both are better prospects than Okung.
It’s that simple.
Oh you didn't know?? You're ass better CALLLLLLLL SOMEBODY!!!!!
I want to see our FO and coaching staff stick to their BPA mantra.....
and i do not want to see draft position and guaranteed salary stand in the way of the Lions drafting the best players available…..and that is why I say NO to Okung at pick 2, because I see him as the 3rd best prospect in the draft…..if you take the QB position out of the picture. Okung is a top 5 prospect in my opinion…..but he will NOT be the BPA at pick 2, and that is all there is to it.
Oh you didn't know?? You're ass better CALLLLLLLL SOMEBODY!!!!!
"BPA Mantra"
The issue I have with your comment regarding how you’d prefer the Lions to stick to their “BPA mantra” is that how can you say with any certainty that by selecting Russell Okung they wouldn’t be doing just that? Last year, some had Mark Sanchez ranked higher on their draft boards than Stafford, and almost all had Aaron Curry ranked higher than Stafford, but the Lions didn’t select either Sanchez or Curry. A year later, do you hate the selection of Matthew Stafford because he wasn’t the consensus overall top prospect in the 2009 draft? We have no idea who the Lions consider to be the BPA.
Bottom line is this: If the Lions select Russell Okung it will be because Mayhew believes that Okung will have more of a positive impact on the teams future success than Ndamukong Suh (or Gerald McCoy, or Eric Berry, etc.). In other words, if Okung is the pick he will be the BPA in the Mayhews opinion.
But what you said doesn't really make sense
Bottom line is this: If the Lions select Russell Okung it will be because Mayhew believes that Okung will have more of a positive impact on the teams future success than Ndamukong Suh (or Gerald McCoy, or Eric Berry, etc.).
I hate to say this, because I’m really not one of the people who wants Suh, but if you, Martin Mayhew, or anyone else can look me in the proverbial eye and tell me that Russell Okung is a better player than Ndamukong Suh, Eric Berry, or even Gerald McCoy or Sam Bradford, for that matter, then (in my opinion) you must be smoking rocks.
Okung is good, hell he’s great. But the problem is this: (once again in my opinion) you can’t really substantiate to me that Okung is definitively better than Brian Bulaga. Sure Okung had a great college tenure, and I’m sure he’ll make a solid LT somewhere, but if you can’t even say that a guy is head and shoulders above the rest of the players in his position (especially given the relative dearth in premiere T depth this year) then how the hell can you say that Okung could POSSIBLY be BPA?
On the contrary to what you said, I think if the Detroit Lions select Russell Okung, especially if it’s at #2, it’s not a BPA pick. It’s a positional pick, and they just picked the best player available in that frame.
Here are my Canadian Two Cents.
I am not convinced that Mayhew, or any NFL GM, is a strict adherent to drafting BPA.
This process [in my opinion] includes positional value in their valuation of each player. How else to explain the choice of Stafford over Curry or Crabtree who were both rated above Staff in the 2009 boards of the top Draft Gurus. However, pretty well every guru/scout correctly predicted [by April] that the Lions would draft Stafford at #1. That is because of his positional value to the Lions.
No one currently has Bradford or Clausen at the top of their draft boards now, but it seems pretty evident that the Rams will select one of them at #1.
The Lions biggest weakness right now is the Offensive Line. The moves made in Free Agency have [temporarily] strengthened the D Line where it is not necessary to add an elite talent like Suh or McCoy for it to be effective. The secondary is another issue. Eric Berry is an elite talent, but he plays a position that does not hold high value. The combination of high BPA and low value drop him below Okung…..IMO.
Okung is an elite [or at least as close as you can get] talent who plays a high value position.
"At some point I’m not going to say this anymore, but our No. 1 need is talent," Schwartz said. "I think that other than quarterback, I’d be surprised if at any point in the draft we pass talent for what would be considered a need.
I don’t know that you can wait those things out. I don’t know that you can say, ‘Hey, the secondary is more important than the defensive line which is more important than this other (position).’ I know, I sort of speak with a forked tongue and said that the quarterback was the most important position on the team – and I still feel that way – but I think that everything else
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
It does make sense, but...
…with the caveat that every team will have a draft board based upon a combination of BPA and positional value. LT holds more positional value than DT or DB, which furthermore explains why LT’s are awarded with contracts higher than DTs or DBs, and why they’re regularly selected at or near the top of each draft. As I said above, Aaron Curry would’ve gone 1st overall to the Lions last year if positional value wasn’t a factor.
So, how the hell can I say that Okung could POSSIBLY be the BPA when the Lions are on the clock? Because he’s an elite prospect and he plays arguably the 2nd most important position on offense.
Thanks Nate.....
That about sums up my viewpoint too…..Berry = without a doubt the best safety in the draft. Suh = without a doubt the best DT in the draft. Okung = maybe the best LT in the draft, but it is not a certainty in my opinion.
Oh you didn't know?? You're ass better CALLLLLLLL SOMEBODY!!!!!
I agree with you guys on this standpoint:
If Mayhew has any reservations on whether or not Okung can become a franchise Left Tackle, and if he’s unable to trade back, then the pick has to be Suh, McCoy, or even Berry.
by BriansLions on Mar 11, 2010 10:47 PM EST up reply actions
So Northleft; that's worth like 1 and 1/2 cents?????
I like what you stated up above for the most part and I agree with almost everything you said.But HOW IN THE WORLD can you say that the O-line is the biggest weekness on this team, when in the last 5 years our Defence has been in the bottom 5 of the league in almost every single stat. Like I have been saying I could understand if we drafted Okung, But we need so much more talent on the D-side of the ball that the O-side I don’t see how we can pass up Berry/Kong if they are both there, And McCoy as an after thought. Every year there is an elite LT in the draft; or so it seems; But guys like these 2 don’t come around very often and we just can’t pass them up, unless a trade down option comes up and I wouldn’t trade down to far either like #7 with the Browns would be as far as I could see us trading down without a shit load of top picks being added to the mix.
How many lumps you want Doc?
Yeah, I double clutched and said "the secondary is another issue" later
I think our D Line, as is, is about average or so for the league. Adding a Suh or McCoy puts it into the top ten both in top line talent and for depth.
Our O Line is in the bottom five of the league. Taking Okung and moving Backus to LG [and pray that works out] will put it into the middle of the league in talent and depth.
Our secondary is in the bottom five of the league as is. Taking Berry will still have us in the bottom ten or so IMO unless we also add another CB with the third round pick.
I just don’t think adding another elite Safety will make that much of a difference. I think we could gain as much by picking a CB in the second round [McCourty] and a Safety in the third or fourth. We need a shutdown corner who can support the run too. Berry can’t do that, at least not at Safety.
I agree with you about not trading down too far. I would stop at # 6 [Seattle]. Any farther and all of Berry and Okung and Suh and McCoy could be gone. One might slip past there depending on how the QBs look, but I would not take the risk. I would stop at #4, Washington.
Understood and agreed with
Even with as much as I want berry I just can’t see our FO not taking Kong/Okung with that #2 pick. And we can always draft another safety in the second round but I don’t think that our FO is going to do that either, not with the glaring holes at CB and O-line. If we take Okung at #2 I don’t think we would try and move Backus inside reguardless, I can see us getting another stopgap in FA or drafting one in the mid rounds. But I still want 1 of the 3 safety’s in the first 2 picks but with Delmas back there I think we are not going to go get Berry/Mayes.
How many lumps you want Doc?
I like what
Reshad did in school, his game could be very good at the next level esp in the 3rd round.
How many lumps you want Doc?
Okung is the BEST LT in this draft. He surrendered 2 pressures and 1 sack all season.
He will hit the ground rolling in the right direction at the next level. Berry at 2 overall would be against what Schwartz has started doing, Delmas is fine back there.
Equation= 1,2,2,3,3 is a lot better than 1,1,2,3 in a deep draft, especially when your 1 nets you E berry.
Alex Smith is not a bust, he is a product of poor management and coaching.
Who's the best LT in the next draft?
We don’t have to do everything in one offseason. Patience. We need a LG now, and a LT in a couple years. Schwartz likes Backus for now. The obvious common sense thing is to get a LG now and a LT in the next couple years.
Yes, Delmas is fine back there. But we have 2 safeties, not one. Eric Berry is the BPA, BPA that fits. He’s fine too. Not drafting the BPA that fits would be against what Schwartz has started doing.
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
49ers are not looking to move up to the 2nd overall pick to get Clausen, especially when he will fall past the Redskins. They won't select a QB first round.
49ers would only trade up for Suh or Berry, PERIOD.
Equation= 1,2,2,3,3 is a lot better than 1,1,2,3 in a deep draft, especially when your 1 nets you E berry.
Alex Smith is not a bust, he is a product of poor management and coaching.
rlott
where did you come up with the 49’ers trying to grab another QB at the 2 spot? I wasn’t sure anyone even mentioned the 49’ers as a possible dance partner in the whole trade talk.
How many lumps you want Doc?
Funny how a 49er fan came in here and said he wants either Suh or berry for his team...LOL
How ironic rlott#42 (forgive me if that seems sarcastic).
I am really tired of people, who call themselves fans of a team, who do not even know a damn thing about the team they claim. They run around spewing crap about college players they want, with no regard to what their team may actually be thinking. Yeah, Alex Smith is the answer…no need to draft a QB and/or move up to get one…lol. And why would SF want Suh? They have Ray McDonald, Justin Smith, Ricky Jean Francois, Aubrayo Frankiln, Khalif Mitchell and a few others already at that position. True, two of them were rookies last year…will SF throw them under the bus after just drafting and signing them last year? I have my doubts, and I think SF has a pretty solid interior D-Line.
Just because your personal wish is for specific players does not mean that your team wants or needs those players. And by the way…Okung is the best PASS BLOCKER coming into the draft. He may or may not be the best ALL AROUND LT. He is known to take plays off and not finish all of his blocks on running plays, that much is for certain. Eric Berry at pick 2 would be against what Schwartz has started to do? Why? You mean to contend that Eric Berry would not be the best player available if Suh was off the board? Who is better? Okung? McCoy? I disagree. If we are speaking purely about playmaking, game changing, immediate impact athleticism and all around ability, then hands down Eric Berry is probably THE best player in the ENTIRE draft, not just at pick 2.
Schwartz started out by bringing in TALENT by drafting the best players available regardless of positional need OR economic constraint…Pettigrew at pick 20? Here is a list of TEs drafted in the top 30 over the last 20 years (dating back to 1990):
From 1990 – 2009, Eric Green, Derek Brown, Johnny Mitchell, Irv Smith, Kyle Brady, Mark Bruener, Rickey Dudley, Dave LaFluer, Tony Gonzalez, Bubby Franks, Anthony Becht, Jeremy Shockey, Daniel Graham, Jerramy Stevens, Dallas Clark, Ben Watson, Kellen Winslow, Heath Miller, Vernon davis, Mercedes lewis, Greg Olsen, Dustin keller, and Brandon Pettigrew were drafted in round 1 (pick 30 or above). Of those 22 men, only TEN of them were drafted at pick 20 or above (including Pettigrew). Of THOSE 10 men (Derek Brown, Johnny Mitchell, Irv Smith, Kyle Brady, Rickey Dudley, Tony Gonzalez, Bubba Franks, Jeremy Shockey, Kellen Winslow, and Vernon Davis), only TWO have been selected as first team All Pros (Gonzo and Shockey) and only THREE others (for a total of 5) even made the pro bowl (Franks, Winslow, and Davis).
Can you tell me that picking a TE at 20 was because he would come cheap (6 years 14.6 million 9.4 million guaranteed)? Was it because we absolutely needed a TE, couldn’t live without one, had to have this kid? No and No. It was because our front office felt that he was the BEST PLAYER AVAILABLE at pick 20, with NO regard to money or positional need! If Schwartz and MAYHEW want to continue doing what they started, the WILL draft Suh or Berry, and that is a fact…not just a parley wish.
Oh you didn't know?? You're ass better CALLLLLLLL SOMEBODY!!!!!
by KDawg on Mar 23, 2010 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Great comments, KDawg!
I especially liked this:
If we are speaking purely about playmaking, game changing, immediate impact athleticism and all around ability, then hands down Eric Berry is probably THE best player in the ENTIRE draft, not just at pick 2.
Eric Berry is probably The Best Player in the Draft? That sure sounds like reason enough to draft Eric Berry to me. For months I’ve been saying that Berry and Suh are head and shoulders the 2 best players in this draft, but that Suh maybe fit the Gunther’s defense, while Berry perfectly fit Gunther’s defense. For me, that’s been the tiebreaker. But lately I’ve come to suspect that maybe Eric Berry is The Best Player in the Draft, period…..edging out Suh. The Best Player. And he fits perfectly. Berry sounds like the obvious pick.
If Schwartz and MAYHEW want to continue doing what they started, the WILL draft Suh or Berry, and that is a fact…not just a parley wish.
I absolutely agree. I really don’t see the pick being anybody other than one of those two. They are head and shoulders above the others in talent, and I really don’t see the Lions trading out of that just for the sake of another pick. That’s not Schwartz’s way.
From Schwartz:
Whether you trade down and get more picks or you move up, it’s more about identifying the players and getting players to fit what you do rather than getting more picks or things like that. More picks aren’t useful if you don’t use them wisely."
Schwartz isn’t going to pass up a chance to get Suh or Berry. It’s fun to spin trade theories all winter, but at the end of the day it’s going to be Suh or Berry at #2. End of story.
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
This was a great KDawg comment, too!
It was because our front office felt that he was the BEST PLAYER AVAILABLE at pick 20, with NO regard to money or positional need!
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
You guys know I agree with everything that was said.
I still just don’t see any GM taking a safety over a DT with this kind of hype and motor.At least not at the 2 spot.The upside on both these players are threw the roof, and not just in physical abilities, they both seem to have a ton of strong character issues. They are both going to be steals for which ever teams get them both. Okung and McCoy are both going to be good but not as good as Kong and Berry. Speaking of Okung, I was watching something on ESPN yesterday and a panel of 5 “know it alls” including Kiper all said that they don’t think that Okung is even the best LT in this draft. They know that not all the NFL GM’s think he is all that, and thats enough reason for me to say DO NOT draft him in the #2 position.
How many lumps you want Doc?
i don't get why salary will have any thing to do with draft
i don’t get why salary will have any thing to do with the draft. I am for suh. However, will the lions not do with the rookie contracts the same as they did with the free agent contracts and front load the contracts so that this year pay is very high and the rest is in line with the league average. Also, why would they not do the same thing restructure large contracts so that this years eats all the big money and then have a low salary team going forward.
Positional value would be important but how much you are paying should not be an issue.
The NFL is a business
And certain positions warrant a higher salary moreso than others. Namely, QB, LT and pass rushing DE’s, which is why those are the positions most often taken at the top of each draft. How much you are paying is absolutely an issue when you’re attempting to build a team and stay under cap restrictions.
by BriansLions on Mar 11, 2010 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not sure how much of that you can actually do.
I’m not saying Ford can’t afford it, I think once the CAP is reinstated, those front end loaded contracts will somehow have to be accounted for or teams that can’t afford to do that [Jaguars, Rams, Bills] will be at a severe disadvantage now, and moving forward. Who knows what the new rules regarding FAs will be like? The ones I have seen being proposed by the owners basically ensures that there will be little competition over a smaller number of older free agents.
Welcome back slavery!
The second pick player, no matter his position, will probably earn near $10 Million per year for five or six years. Anyone who tries to convince you that some players will come with a discount because they play a lower valued position do not have a clue. Even that argument undercuts the case for picking that player. Why draft a lower valued position that early? Take the player that will make the most difference by playing at a high level at the more important postion.
In our case, since we already have our QB, that would be a DE or LT. Since no DEs are near top five pick worthy, take the consensus best LT who will go in the top five anyways.
Hey NorthLeft12...
I think we both have been attending class at the WalterFootball School of Knowledge. LOL…
Yes, I guess we have.
I try and read other sites to try and make sure I get a good balance of information, but Walt C. and MacGuire make a lot of sense.
by NorthLeft12 on Mar 11, 2010 10:26 PM EST up reply actions
+1
I agree; I’m a draft nut and love to absorb information from everywhere possible, as well. Until the Lions start winning again, the draft is the best time of the year to be a Lions fan. As for Walt and McGuire, I don’t agree with everything they say, but they back up the majority of their opinions with valid information and relevant data. It’s definitely one of the best draft sites out there.
by BriansLions on Mar 11, 2010 10:37 PM EST up reply actions
Another reason that hints to Okung being taken #2
If they stay at the pick and dont trade down. I believe that they will take him since they have not yet even touched the line as far as upgrades. Think about it, even just between last draft and this offseason they have picked up a, QB,DL,CB,SS,RB, WR. It makes sense that now they would turn there attention to the O-Line.
I want to join your guys cause here
And Joey you make the strongest point to me, But maybe it’s because those other areas were SO much weaker than the O-line that they needed the infusion of talent more.I wanted a LT so bad last year before we drafted a QB but you know what our Offence isn’t what keeps loosing games for us it’s our horrible defence that can’t stop anyone, case in point:look at every single horrible QB that we play and has the best games of their lives. There a reason that on almost every single highlight real of every other team they show our Lions getting trashed by someone; i.e. Rams,Browns,Seahawks, Cutler twice, do I need to keep going on here? Sure up the D then worry about our middle of the road Offence. We have enough talent on that side of the ball to be competetive, but they need to actually be able to step on to the field to show that.
How many lumps you want Doc?
You know that is a briliant point Davis...
Not getting the O-line fixed is like Paying 70 million for a new engine and the trans. is broke and the car dont run. Dont run that engine and eventually it will break too !!! Can we really afford to loose Stafford to a injury ? If we loose him were screwed in my opinion. We at least need to improve the O-line through FA and the draft before that happens. At least enough so he isent getting killed so often. Then im ok with us going all out on the defense. Remember, Backus, Raiola and Janson are about to retire in the near future and there is a open window at left gaurd still. When i say build the O, I think mostly I mean save Staffords life !!
Joey I agree hole heartedly with getting Staff some protection
But like I just replied to your post up above I just can’t see how we can afford to put Backus and his hefty contract on the bench for a LT that has not proven he can play at this level yet. Backus isn’t going to slide to RT since we already have 2 there. And Janson is a better RT than Backus anyhow. I really do want to get someone younger to protect staff’s blind side but unless Backus is going to restructure his contract this year/ after this season I can’t see us drafting Okung. I do see us getting a LG in this draft since that position is the weekest link on the front line but I just can’t see us putting 20 million into 1 position for 2 guys, reguardless if it’s an uncapped year or not.
How many lumps you want Doc?
+1000
We need a LG now, and a LT later.
Hey, maybe we’ll get a LG now, and a LT later!
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
Stafford isn't getting killed...
According to Pro Football Reference Stafford only took about 24 sacks last season, which isn’t a ridiculous number (and his injury was due to holding the ball for 10 seconds to try to make a play in Cleveland, which wasn’t the OL’s fault).
by Mister Gloom on Mar 20, 2010 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
Lions in enviable draft position
As far as the draft goes, we are in the enviable position to be able to take BPA—-nearly entirely regardless of position. This is due to the fact that we don’t have quality starters and, hence, don’t have depth.
By building quality starters using BPA, we will be able to relegate our current starters to depth guys/role players. Until we get to .500, we should be able to continue to draft nearly exclusively with this strategy.
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
Yeah, but who exactly is the BPA?
I have had this discussion with a few people here, at WalterFootball.com, and Mocking the Draft. Nobody can really define it and give examples of any GM that follows it to precisely that definition.
They all work in positional value and team need to some different degree. How do you decide who is the best “player” between Anthony Munoz, Joe Greene, and Rod Woodson? To me it almost becomes a choice of personal taste. If they believe that Berry, Suh and Okung are all close in ability right now, and they believe their ceiling is about the same, you go with who plays the higher value position, who is the better fit and who fills your needs better.
That is where Okung seperates himself from the other three IMO.
Northy
You REALLY think that LT is more of a need than DT? Honestly? We have Mr.dependable at Lt, and a 2nd year player with a FA at DT. I am stopping the talk about Berry cause I just can’t see us taking him above Kong/Okung, reguardless of how awesome that tandem would be for the next 10 years. I can see us taking Okung only for the reason of wanting to act like we are protecting Staffinfection but there is no guarantee that he isn’t going to be another Cherilous (mediocre) and hell we already have that in Backus. But Kong (again no guarantee) could very well be (I hate myself) the next Warren Sapp, kind of DT that can change a franchise around with his disruptiveness and speed at the DT positoin.
How many lumps you want Doc?
You REALLY think that LT is more of a need than DT? Honestly?
I do. Well, let me let me clarify: I think the left side of our O-Line is a FAR bigger need than the DT position. Selecting Okung fixes LT in the long-term AND fixes LG right now (either Okung or Backus would play LG next year).
Our DT situation isn’t all that bad—we have a young, 330-pound fourth-round pick from last year who started and played pretty well as a rookie. Sammie Hill will be even better this year.
Corey Williams is a 320-pound DT who, the last time he was allowed to play in his natural 4-3 position, achieved two consecutive seven-sack seasons. He’s big and he can rush the passer. He’s only 29, which for a DT means he should have at least 3-5 more productive seasons in him.
So, comparing the left side of our O-Line to the interior of our D-Line, the O-Line has one solid player now (Backus), who is getting older and will leave a hole in the long term (which selecting Okung would indirectly fix), and one gaping hole (LG, which selecting Okung would indirectly fix).
The D-Line, on the other hand, has two solid players (Hill and Williams), both younger than Backus, and no immediate holes.
Hey that's a timeout, I can play right? yeah, get me--get the F-- Help me up...I can throw the ball if you need me to throw the ball...
What about DE?
Or is everyone happy with the incumbant Avril/Hunter? I personnally don’t think we are done in the FA so my opinion will probably change again before draft day but I still think that we can not pass on a guy like Kong when every year there seems to be at least 1 Okung, he has not had the Hype of say J.Long/O.Pace A. Munez, T Basselli, J Ogden LT’s of the past. He falls in the hype of the guys that came out last year, a shot in the dark that he might be that good but not a Lead Pipe Lock at LT. where as Kong seems to be that Lead Pipe Lock at the DT position as a game changer.I’d say Berry as well but we just are not going to take Berry if Kong is there no matter how bad I still want him next to Delmas. I wonder how many times I have to put that in there before it becomes an after thought.
How many lumps you want Doc?
DE
I’m “okay” with Vanden Bosh on one side and Avril/Hunter on the other. Of course, if the staff finds a Defensive End somewhere in this draft they think can help us improve, I’m all for drafting the guy.
I agree that Suh projects higher among DT’s than Okung among LT’s, but at the same time adding Okung to the left side of the O-Line might generate a bigger improvement than adding Suh to the middle of the D-Line, and the LT position is a more critical/valued position than DT.
Maybe it’s just a question of “do you draft the five-star guy (Suh) who plays four-and-a-half-star position (DT) and carries the bpa grade, or draft the four-and-a-half-star guy (Okung) who plays the five-star position (LT), and would fill more immediate holes (indirectly fixing the LG spot immediately and providing a long-term heir to the LT spot)”
Hey that's a timeout, I can play right? yeah, get me--get the F-- Help me up...I can throw the ball if you need me to throw the ball...
by n4ry4 on Mar 12, 2010 4:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
+1
Couldn’t have said it better myself. You totally summed up the argument for both sides.
Maybe it’s just a question of "do you draft the five-star guy (Suh) who plays four-and-a-half-star position (DT) and carries the bpa grade, or draft the four-and-a-half-star guy (Okung) who plays the five-star position (LT), and would fill more immediate holes (indirectly fixing the LG spot immediately and providing a long-term heir to the LT spot)"
+1000
The Bringers of Hope: Stafford - Delmas - C. Johnson - Pettigrew - Levy - Hill - Schwartz
Zack Follett: he will hurt your mind.
by Hyperion Ecta on Mar 12, 2010 6:57 PM EST up reply actions
Hmmm...
that’s an interesting way to look at it. I think I’d still rather have the 5 star player at the 4.5 star position…. and I’ll tell you my main reasoning. I might be off here a little, but I think Jeff Backus is better than Corey Williams. Because if we draft Suh or Okung, we are replacing one of those positions. I know that Backus would likely move inside and that has to be taken into consideration, but Williams is a bit of an unknown. It’s been a few years since he had a good season. I think Schwartz is really looking to enhance an area that was a real weakness (defensive line) and is less likely to use the first pick to replace an area that was adequate (left tackle).
Then again… it would be nice to have a complete o-line. Tom-ay-to, Tom-ah-to…….
well said! +1000
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
What about DE?
Ndamukong Suh is a DT (???)… I’m confused…
Anyhow, you’re correct, almost every draft there are Left Tackles similar to Russell Okung, but every year those players go off the board within the top-5 picks because of positional value. There’s no guarantee that the Lions will be picking in the top 5 or 10 next year, or the year after that. For many of the same reasons that the Lions selected Matthew Stafford 1st overall in the 2009 draft, the Lions should select Russell Okung 2nd overall in the 2010 draft.
YES, LT is more of a need than DT
Backus may be playing at a high level at Left Tackle, but he’s possibly the only player on the offensive line that you can make that argument for. To be completely honest, Left Guard is more of a need than Defensive Tackle, but the selection of Okung would fill that hole by kicking Backus inside, and provide Stafford with his blind-side protector for the next 10 years.
And you can’t honestly think that because Cherilus hasn’t completely panned out that Mayhew should shy away from selecting any other Offensive Tackle in the 1st round, can you? If that was the case I guarantee that Calvin Johnson would not be a Detroit Lion.
And yes, I’ve heard it repeatedly how horrible the Lions defense is. But let’s be honest with ourselves, the offense hasn’t fared much better as of late, either.
Bottom line: as much of a stud / can’t-miss prospect Suh may seem to be, I believe it just makes more sense for the Lions to select Russell Okung 2nd overall.
There seem to be 3 approaches here to drafting..........
1. Draft for what you think the Lions “need”.
“I don’t care what Schwartz has said. I don’t care what the team did, what moves they made, who fits this team and who doesn’t. I want to fill _ position, come hell or high water!” (insert cliches about picks, shovels, and trenches here) If necessary, I’ll go so far as to insist that player is the BPA, even if he’s not (Okung?).
2. Draft who the media wants us to pick……“seduced by the hype”.
“I love Mel Kiper! I worship his hair and the ground he walks on! I don’t care what Schwartz has said. I don’t care what the team did, what moves they made, what fits this team and what doesn’t. Kiper/McShay/Mayock are sooooooo much smarter than Schwartz! They are living gods! I want who the media says I should want! I’ll even insist that the media’s favorite player is the BPA (for ANY team!), because THEY say so!”
3. Logical Approach. Start from the facts and reach a logical conclusion about what the LIONS want. Don’t start from what the MEDIA wants or what position YOU want to fill and work backwards to justify it. Analyze what Schwartz, Gunther, Linehan did on the field. Review their schemes. Is it primarily zone-blocking or power downhill blocking? Is it a 3-4 or a 4-3? Is it a 1-gap 4-3 with a smaller UT, or a 2-gap 4-3 with “mirrored” 2-gap GIANT DT’s? Does Gunther blitz? Was the secondary good enough to allow him to blitz more, or was the secondary crappy enough that Gunther had to limit his blitzes? Does Schwartz use big traditional Strong Safeties, or smaller faster ones like Delmas? What kind of safeties did Schwartz use in Tennessee? How big and fast are Chris Hope and Michael Griffin? Review the kinds of players Mayhew got, and is still getting, and how they fit those schemes. See how they used their DT’s, safeties, LB’s, OL, etc. What kind of players fit the mold? Look up quotes from Schwartz, Gunther, Mayhew, Linehan about the types of players they like, what types fits their scheme, and what their philosophy is on drafting…..BPA, BPA that FITS, or “need”, or something else. See the kind of players they say they want and the kind of players they actually get, use, and keep. Review the recent Free Agent moves to see if Mayhew is setting the Lions up to draft a particular player. Has a player likely been penciled in as the pick, allowing Mayhew to use the Free Agent moves to fill around him? Is it reasonable to think that by this point the Lions know the top players in the draft well enough to pencil a guy in? Has one slot has been left conspicuously vacant (Left Safety) while other positions (DT, DE, 1 CB) have been filled with good players with lots of starting experience? This 3rd approach objectively analyzes the facts of what Schwartz, Mayhew, Gunther, Linehan, etc, said and did. The goal here is not to reach the hyped conclusion, or the popular conclusion, or what some think “should be the conclusion”………the goal is to reach the correct conclusion, to accurately figure out who Schwartz and Mayhew are going to pick. The media doesn’t make that pick. The fans don’t make that pick. The LIONS make that pick. Theirs are the only opinions that matter. Listen to Schwartz.
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
We won't know the correct conclusion for a while then
Predicting the draft is a hard business and I don’t think anyone knows for sure what is going to happen. Which is why I’m happy to wait and see who we get and in the meantime just research our possibilities so I know what type of player we may be getting. That’s all you can do.
"Zack Follett: he will hurt your mind." - Pride Leader, Sean Yuille, wielder of the Ban Hammer.
2010 Wests Tigers : Current record - 1-0 : Current Position - 8th : Last game - Defeated Manly Sea Eagles 26 -22
by Hyperion Ecta on Mar 17, 2010 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well said HE.
We all have our opinions.It is interesting to see the logic people use to justify their conclusions. Makes for good discussion.
That it does.
"Zack Follett: he will hurt your mind." - Pride Leader, Sean Yuille, wielder of the Ban Hammer.
2010 Wests Tigers : Current record - 1-0 : Current Position - 8th : Last game - Defeated Manly Sea Eagles 26 -22
by Hyperion Ecta on Mar 19, 2010 7:08 AM EDT up reply actions
So, according to you...
…Eric Berry is the only “logical” selection at #2 overall? I respectfully disagree.
so be it
We’ll see.
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
Besides ....
Not getting the O-line fixed is like Paying 70 million for a new engine and the trans. is broke and the car dont run. Dont run that engine and eventually it will break too !!!
Or getting the car to run but
Not putting in any windows so that the bugs can smack you in the face every where you go. Without a D it would be like running your car with NO brakes and on flat tires. when all we have is a frame of a sports car where do you really start with the rebuild????
How many lumps you want Doc?
+1
Love the analogy… lol…
2-3 months ago I would’ve said that the Lions would have to be crazy to pass on a player like Suh. But the more I thought about it I believe it just makes more sense to select Russell Okung. We need to surround Stafford with the tools he needs to succeed. This team will only go as far as Stafford can take them.
by BriansLions on Mar 13, 2010 10:08 AM EST up reply actions
Did anybody watch The Blindside? The first check is for the house(stafford) the next check is for the insurance. (okung)
no brainer.
Equation= 1,2,2,3,3 is a lot better than 1,1,2,3 in a deep draft, especially when your 1 nets you E berry.
Alex Smith is not a bust, he is a product of poor management and coaching.
rlott
Again if our FO was so concerned about our line then we would have drafted a LT in the first round last year but we didn’t we took a TE instead of a LT and Oher was still available at that point. Hell I wanted us to take a LT at the 1st overall pick last year and the QB this year but hey we got Staff and the rest is going to be history.
How many lumps you want Doc?
That argument really doesn't hold water
By the time the Lions were on the clock at #20 the top LT’s were off the Lions draft board. So, the Lions took the BPA on their draft board and selected Brandon Pettigrew. In hindsight, it’s all too easy to say that the Lions should have selected someone else (Oher), but any LT that drops out of the top 10 comes with baggage / red flags.
Trust me on this: it is a top priority of the FO to better protect Matthew Stafford, and because they have not addressed the Offensive Line in Free Agency, I fully expect them to address it in the draft.
Actually Brian
It does hold water. Our FO and coach’s must be happy with our current O-line other wise we would have made a bigger splash going after bigger names in FA last year and again this year. Not just the draft. They have a plan and are sticking to it. I just wish I knew what it was.
How many lumps you want Doc?
The FO is concerned with the OL
Last offseason, the Lions brought in OG Daniel Loper, OG Dylan Gandy, OG Toniu Fonoti, OT Kirk Barton, and OT Jon Jansen (did I miss anyone?). Going into last season, it’s obvious that the FO was concerned about the Guard play, and the lack of depth at all of the OL positions. What “big splash” OL Free Agent were you hoping to land? And furthermore, what Pro-Bowler would sign with the worst team in the league without a kings ransom?
Stephen Peterman (when healthy) looks like he could be the answer at RG, but we still have a void at LG. Due to the fact that they haven’t touched the O-line so far this offseason, it’s my assumption that it will be addressed somewhere within the Draft. Again, your argument that the FO isn’t concerned about the OL doesn’t hold water.
Fixing LG...
…I vote for drafting John Jerry in the third round.
by Mister Gloom on Mar 20, 2010 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
A lot cheaper and less risky than drafting Okung at #2 Overall, moving Okung or Backus to LG, and hoping it all works out
We need a LG now and a LT in a couple years.
So….get a LG now and a LT in a couple years……and take the BPA that fits at #2
(it isn’t Okung)
How hard is that to understand?
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
if your the lions gm you have wonder if ndamukong suh knees will hold up because he allready surgery . if you draft gerald mccoy will he play hard all game .if you draft eric berry and earl thomas or taylor mays out plays him next season then you will lock follish draft him with 2pick. but if draft russsell okung at left ot you can say you weare geting backus replaysment at ot and then backus can play guared where should have played all these years. for those whoe say pick dt with the2pick you can not bitch about how manny qb sacks backus give up next year in pod posts.
KW
When has Backus EVER PLAYED GUARD?? Never not even in collage. So don’t say thats where he belongs cause he doesn’t know how to play guard now your asking the ENTIRE left side to learn a new position at this level. . . .You REALLY don’t want to see Stafford live after this year with that kind of thinking. Wiff wiff here Wiff wiff there, the door to his back side would be open the hole year! Again IF we draft Okung then we would HAVE to have backus restructure his contract or just cut his ass.And after all the years of descent play he has givin us and the fact he just never gets hurt why would you want to cut him???
How many lumps you want Doc?
good point
I wonder who first talked about moving Backus to Guard? Sounds like we just need a good guard and can keep Backus at LT.
by coolbreeze42 on Mar 13, 2010 12:00 AM EST up reply actions
Long term we need to find a replacement for Backus.
As n4ry4 said in the FanPost we may not be drafting down this early again and may have trouble getting a really good Left Tackle as the best ones go in the top ten.
Backus has a couple years of good play left so getting Okung now is smart long term thinking.
I am not saying it is impossible to get a good LT in the draft after the top ten, it is just harder and you pick riskier prospects.
Long term, not now
We need a LG now and a LT in a couple years. The smart long-term thinking is to get a LG now and a LT in the next couple years, rather than getting impatient now. There will be LT’s just as good in the next couple years. Every year people seem to get tunnel vision and think this draft’s players are the greatest there will ever be. Smart long-term thinking sees beyond that.
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
Yes, I do. Berry is the BPA, BPA that fits, brings the "Delmas personality" that Schwartz wants, is the best safety to come along in years (with no better ones on the horizon)........that's long-term thinking
He even fills a huge need at Left Safety, for those who want to fill needs.
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
Meanwhile...........
Is Okung really better than Joe Thomas(2007) or Jake Long(2008)?
Or is he more like Jason Smith(2009)?
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
In my opinion Okung is closer to Joe Thomas than anyone from the 2009 class.
He has demonstrated high level performance in one of the toughest conferences in college for 47 straight games. Obviously he has tremendous durability for that same reason. His offence has been the number one rushing offence for three straight seasons in the Big 12 [without the benefit of a great running back] and has allowed the least number of sacks two of those three years.
Anyone who says that he is average or will be average in the NFL has just not looked at what he has done on the field and in the combine/workouts.
Is he “elite”? Not yet. But some scouts think he has plenty of upside to get better. I think he is an option for the Lions, but ultimately, only if Suh is not available to select.
I agree that he has plenty of upside
However, Okung is not the run blocker that Joe Thomas or Jake Long is. That said, it is my opinion that he is the best PASS blocker of all of them. Can he learn better run blocking technique on the fly, and can he make a big enough impact while he does it, to be drafted 2nd overall and get paid the money that goes along with the position? That is the question. My personal opinion is that NONE of the prospects in this draft should be paid what a 2nd pick in the draft demands….period.
Oh you didn't know?? You're ass better CALLLLLLLL SOMEBODY!!!!!
Hey Lefty
I totally agree with you about the Big 12 being the best conferance in college last year but let me ask you something about the BIG 12: Where is the awesome DE from that conferance last year???? There wasn’t one in the BIG 12 last year at least on his side of the ball. Okung was playing against a lower level of talent at his position. He should have been dominant against the guys he was playing against. Where as Kong was being double teamed every play and still killing QB’s and RB’s. Berry played in the Pass Happy ACC where there was no dominant team;Don’t say Alabama and Florida cause they both got beat last year or at least they would have if it wasn’t for the biast officiating in that conferance.
How many lumps you want Doc?
Okung shut out the NCAA sack leader. Von Miller of Texas A&M.
Jeremy Beal of OU was no slouch. He may have been a second round pick this year. Brandon Sharpe and Jeffrey Fitzgerald were also pretty effective pass rushers from the edge.
But I have to agree with you in general. The Big 12 did not have many very good DEs.
No, Backus has never played Guard
But if Schwartz wouldn’t have said that he’d be confident with Backus playing Left Guard at some point in his career then part of my argument for selecting Okung wouldn’t hold water.
“He can play left tackle, he can play left guard,” Schwartz said. “If that’s something he ends up doing, I think he could do either one.”
That being said, who’s to say that Okung couldn’t play Left Guard until he’s ready to kick outside to Left Tackle?
And why on earth would they cut Backus? The Lions would not “HAVE” to have him restructure his contract. Backus is 32, has only 2 years left on a 6 year $38 million contract (which isn’t nearly as much as everyone likes to make it out to be), and they’ll have to replace him eventually. Why not plan for the future and select Okung now?
I simply feel that Okung is the best choice for this franchise due to their investment in Matthew Stafford. As a fan, I need to know that their young franchise QB is being given all the tools he needs to succeed.
by BriansLions on Mar 13, 2010 10:01 AM EST up reply actions
Backus sucks at LT
Equation= 1,2,2,3,3 is a lot better than 1,1,2,3 in a deep draft, especially when your 1 nets you E berry.
Alex Smith is not a bust, he is a product of poor management and coaching.
BROVO, kwfords ....
I have been saying the same thing about Suhs knees, I do not think enough people have brought that up, its a huge concern.
I am not concerned about Suh's knees...
at his age anyway.
Based on my information, surgically repaired ACL’s are stronger after rehabilitation than they were before the surgery. Don’t ask me why, but I have had a first hand experience with this and that is what the doc told me.
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
I'm ok with Suh, Okung or even Berry
I’m not very big on McCoy. I saw his cone drill and he looked like an average big guy on it.
I said before the Combine that he didn't look good in that cone drill
I went back and rechecked the tape. His HAND touched 4th out of 5. Those are the rules. That’s part of the drill requirements. It tests agility.
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
Good post, many thoughts.
First off almost anything written here is speculation. The truth is that no one can be sure of anything. I have heard about a lot of “can’t miss prospects” becoming draft busts. Dare I remind you all of Charles Rodgers? I think what is important is two things. First off that the coaching staff has a game plan for the draft regarding the type of player they need and how they fit into our playbook. Secondly, please stay away from guys with “off field issues”. Granted some guys deserve a second chance, and I trust the coaching staff to make a good call on those decisions. So that brings me back to the first point. I want to clarify. You have to evaluate players based on how they fit into your team. For instance on the defensive line, the big hogs that eat blocks perform much better for a 3-4 than a 4-3 defense. You also need linebackers with more range, and ability to play both the pass and support the run in a 4-3, since they have one less guy on that level of the defense. On the Berry front, I am just not big on taking a safety high. IMO they require a lot less ability than any other position on defense. IMO a safety relies more on thier brains than athleticism. There are other quality safety out there too, guys like Earl Thomas and Major Wright.
On a side note, does anyone know what happens if the Lions do not pick in the allotted time? Will they then defer to the next team and be able to pick after them? Or will they have to trade down to be able to pick later? I was just thinking that it would be pretty sweet if they could keep “deferring” until they can take their targeted guy in the pick that makes the most sense money wise.
Yes. If youdelay past your allotted time the next team can pick ahead of you.
This happened with the Minnesota Vikings in 2003. They were supposed to pick seventh and while trying to arrange a trade their time ran out and Jacksonville and Carolina jumped in with picks right away before they could pick. Minnesota ended up selecting Kevin Williams DT.
I call this the idiot strategy. Yes, lets pass on the most talented players because we don’t need them. We have enough talent, thank you very much.
Musical Guards.
I see all the debate here on who would be best to take the LG position from the current lineup and I think it is silly. You would have to be extremely knowledgeable to put solid information there. For instance, the difference between RT and LT is like the difference for a solid starter to an all pro. The LT position requires a lot more foot work and better hands to fight off the premier pass rushers in the league. Guard also comes with a different set of skills required. One things guards do often that tackles do not do is pull from their position to become a lead blocker. For a guard to be effective as a pull blocker he has to be good at pivoting and bursting, a lot of tackles are not. The ones that are, can do it because of natural talent, they certainly have not been coached to block like a guard, they have been tackles the majority of their career.
There are some decent guards out there in free agency, one of them signed with the Cards, Rex Hadnot. There are still a couple left that are worth signing. So you never know, we might not be done with free agency yet.
On the draft front there is nothing to say we have to take Okung or bust. There are plenty of good guard prospects out there such as Maurkice Pouncey (a center versatile enough to play guard) and Jon Asamoah.
Some info for you on Pro Bowl guards and where they have been drafted. The List is in order of appearance from 2010 down to 2000. Some players here have been to multiple pro bowls.
Logan Mankins Round 1 pick 32
Alan Faneca Round 1 Pick 26
Kris Dielman Undrafted Free Agent
Steve Hutchinson Round 1 Pick 17
Leonard Davis Round 1 Pick 2
Chris Snee Round 2 Pick 34
Davin Joseph Round 1 Pick 23
Brian Waters Undrafted Free Agent
Shawn Andrews Round 1 Pick 16
Will Shields Round 3 pick 74
Larry Allen Round 2 Pick 46
Ruben Brown Round 1 Pick 14
Mike Wahle Round 2 Supplemental Draft
Marco Rivera Round 6 Pick 208
Ron Stone Round 4 Pick 96
Jermane Mayberry Round 1 Pick 25
Ray Brown Round 8 Pick 201
Adam Timmerman Round 7 Pick 230
Bruce Matthews Round 1 Pick 9
Steve Wisniewski Round 2 Pick 29
Randall McDaniel Round 1 Pick 19
Tre Johnson Washington Round 2 Pick 31
Anyways I think its pretty clear, if you want a pro bowl caliber LG you better draft him in the 1st or 2nd round.
by Evilsmurf on Mar 14, 2010 4:26 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Nice research Esmurf.
A lot of people still want to believe that you can get Guards anytime late in the draft and they will be great. Fact of the matter is Guards, QBs, DEs, really any position, are more talented and usually more successful when they are selected early in the draft. There is a reason that the NFL has all these scouts who evaluate these players. Because they are generally good at what they do.
I don’t understand anyone who could doubt that.
It's the Tom Brady factor
Everyone in Michigan knows that Tom Brady was drafted in the 6th round by the New England Patriots. So the argument goes like this: If the Patriots can find a franchise QB in the late rounds, why can’t the Lions? And the same argument can be made for other positions, as well. Personally, I believe it’s an idiotic theory that’s loaded with unrealistic expectations. If your scouts think a player is that damn good, chances are you won’t be the only organization that feels that way, and your player will be drafted in the early rounds by someone else and you’ll miss out. Tom Brady was the exception, not the rule.
by BriansLions on Mar 14, 2010 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions
great research!
Whats the bust percentage for that position? Seeing that many Pro-bowl picks makes me think that a Guard is one of the safer picks.
Stafford didn't actually take that many sacks...
according to Pro Football Stafford only took a total of 24 sacks (or 2.4/game). This compares with, say, John Kitna taking 63 sacks in 2006 (or almost 4/game). Now, this doesn’t necessarily mean that the line was great, but Stafford isn’t going to get killed as much as some QB’s as he has the whole “Dan Marino quick release” thing (note: I"m not saying Stafford will be the next Marino, just that he has Marino’s ability to get rid of the ball quickly to avoid a sack).
True
The Bringers of Hope: Stafford - Delmas - C. Johnson - Pettigrew - Levy - Hill - Schwartz
Zack Follett: he will hurt your mind.
by Hyperion Ecta on Mar 14, 2010 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions
True
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
Dare I say...
it seemed sometimes that Staff was willing to throw the ball faster and into coverage to avoid a sack/hit?
Unfortunately, it resulted in fewer sacks but more INT’s. He needs more time to be the Matt we know he can be.
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
The Detroit Lions welcomed Oklahoma State offensive tackle Russell Okung to the team’s headquarters and practice facility on Monday, marking the first prospect visit this year.
I wouldn't read too much into this
It definitely signifies that there is some interest from the Lions brass, but they hosted Aaron Curry last year, too. Teams are allowed to bring in up to 30 potential draft picks, so Okung will be the first of many to parade the facilities in Allen Park.
We have to wait and see what happens with Hargrove.
If we get him, we’re obviously not likely to go the Suh/McCoy route, and means we’ll probably be going with Okung.
I’ve watched and read a lot of different opinions this subject. I am still convinced that if there : Suh@2!!! Suh@2!!! Suh@2!!!
OMG_________!
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
honestly
the way are o-line is we probly have one or two real starters lol basicly im for okung or trade down, wouldnt mind it to bad if we got suh but than in the 2nd we’d have to grab lt-lg, honestly though you can scratch are offense if we dont get at least a LT this year. if we even got a LG which we need just as bad, backus would get manhandled by peppers big time along with allen, really dont feel like stafford getting perm injury’s this early for no protection, without time to throw no1 has a chance to get open not to mention are no push o-line for the run
basicly comes down to get okung or pray for a good LT beginning of the 2nd round id personally like to get a trade down we can really badly use a little lower 1st and a 2+3 or even 2 first rounders. basicly the two birds with one stone for a year possibly 2 gives us time to grab a lg and mold him
by Daniel Simonelli on Mar 20, 2010 2:53 AM EDT reply actions
My opinion on our oline.
LT Backus, solid but not great. I do not share Shwartz opinion that he is an all pro.
LG Rameriz, showed some signs but is not a solid starter and needs a lot of work yet. Could lose hsi job to a rookie.
C Raiola, cant run block for crap, has hurt the team for years by us not being able to run up the middle.
RG Peterman, decent starter but nothing sepcial.
RT Cherilus, inconsistent and struggles against the elite ends. Needs to step it up or Jansen will have to school the boy.
So I think your pretty accurate, our only legit starters are Backus and Peterman.
OK guys time to bring out the big guns on Okung
For everyone of you Okung bandwagon guys, What makes you all think that he can come right in and start anyways? There is NO guarantees that he is going to start the season at LT if we drafted him, It is a better chance that by drafting a defencive player Kong/Berry/McCoy that they will be starters from day 1 over Okung, so why take a CHANCE in getting a opening day starter when you have 2 or 3 guaranties sitting there at the 2 pick.
How many lumps you want Doc?
why take a CHANCE in getting a opening day starter when you have 2 or 3 guaranties sitting there at the 2 pick.
There are no guarantees in the draft. Every prospect we draft is a guy we’re taking a chance on.
I hope we don’t draft for opening day. We draft to find a guy who can be a starter for the next 10 years or so. Opening day is just one game out of potentially hundreds that the #2 guy will hopefully play for us. Any prospect is going to have a learning curve to go through, but I don’t see anything about Okung that would indicate he can’t be a starter in week 1. He’s got very good experience and durability, he has the talent, he has the athleticism and the measureables. Everybody on the staff seems to be impressed with him. And Suh and Berry look like great prospects too.
Hey that's a timeout, I can play right? yeah, get me--get the F-- Help me up...I can throw the ball if you need me to throw the ball...
Good points,
but I will add that if ANY draftee CAN’t Start on OUR team, we shouldn’t draft them. We are equal or close to the worst 2 season record in the history of football, and a first round pick SHOULD be a starter on this team.
It’s not like you are bringing them into the Colts or Steelers where they can develop depth for a couple of years.
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
+1
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
Like I asked up above
The BIG 12 was the best conference by far, But where was the awesome DE’s in that conf? How many of the guys that Okung had to line up against are going to be drafted in the first 2 rounds?? Maybe 1! He just didn’t play against the top DE’s in collage last year and it will show up on Sunday for us when he has the likes the DE’s that are in our own Division.
How many lumps you want Doc?
Great Minds Think Alike
I am with you on this one and your reasoning is sound and right on. Which is probably why the Lions wont do it. LOL Okung solves 3 problems; better guard tackle and center play wherever you plug him in on that left side. Its like getting three players with one pick. And in your scenario where he starts out as the guard, you can spare Backuses feelings. He is an iron- man and has a lot of green invested in him. I just feel that he is the best guard on the Lions team.
by mister nattydred on Mar 20, 2010 7:28 PM EDT reply actions
I just wanted to point out something, if your someone that is superstitious and tries to read between the lines on things....
The first player Detroit had in to visit was Okung, the second was McCoy, and third was Suh. Now I am not saying I have inside information and that is the way they have them valued on their board… but I know its how I value them on my board and it is the order they invited them to visit.
lol
These guys also have their own schedules that must be considered. I seriously doubt the Lions have McCoy in their top 3 at this point. My bet is Suh, Berry, and Okung, in that order. My logic is Suh is the BPA if he is there at 2, Berry will be the target if Suh is gone or we can trade down, and Okung will be the target if Suh is gone and we can not trade down. Gerald McCoy should only be an afterthought, in the event that we trade down and Suh and Berry are gone when we pick. Honestly, I do not understand how anyone can believe that McCoy could come in and make an immediate impact with his lack of strength. For a team with the luxury of being able to develop a player, Gerald McCoy is a very attractive prospect because all he really lacks is the strength necessary to compete at the next level. That said, I think it will take him 2 or 3 years to develop that strength, and the Lions can not afford to wait that long.
Oh you didn't know?? You're ass better CALLLLLLLL SOMEBODY!!!!!
I should have said "McCoy should only be an afterthought, in the event that we trade down and Suh, Berry, AND Okung are gone when we pick"
Oh you didn't know?? You're ass better CALLLLLLLL SOMEBODY!!!!!
then Haden over McCoy right?
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
I agree
I don’t even have McCoy on my draft board—-not at any pick.
Not saying he’s bad, but I think he has more questions than answers in addition to not being a good fit for our D.
I would take a flyer on him in the 4th round if he was there. Just my opinion, but I would rather have Suh, Wilson, Asamoah in the first 3 rounds that McCoy in there.
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
Schwartz feels differently.
LINK: http://www.freep.com/article/20100322/SPORTS01/100322005/1049/rss14
Funny, no mention of Eric Berry there, unless you want to read into this;
But it’s also safe to say those are the top three candidates for the Lions at No. 2 overall.
"At that point," Schwartz said, "I don’t know if you put a whole lot of other people into that consideration."
Just so there is no confusion, the three candidates in the discussion are Suh, McCoy and Okung.
It's not going to be the BPA then
It’s going to be one of the top 3 players that the Lions feel are best suited to be drafted at pick 2, based on financial contingencies and the status quo. Frankly, that PISSES me off to no end!
Oh you didn't know?? You're ass better CALLLLLLLL SOMEBODY!!!!!
Schwartz didn't tip his hand
Notice he wasn’t the one quoted when it was said “…but it’s also safe to say those are the top three candidates for the Lions at No. 2 overall”. That was the writer, not schwartz.
Then all he referenced was “i don’t know if you put a whole lot of other people into that consideration”. Key words are “i don’t know” and “whole lot”. Which is saying, I am not tipping my hand, and there could be one more, two more, or a few more people we would consider.
Lot’s of posturing for sure. The way they play it close to the vest, the only reason he gave any info out was because that’s what he wanted to get out.
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
I still have a feeling the pick will be based more on money...
than it will be on talent, unless we get Suh or Berry at 2 (in my opinion).
Oh you didn't know?? You're ass better CALLLLLLLL SOMEBODY!!!!!
the money is the money...
unless a player has a lousy agent, #2 money is pretty much #2 money right?
Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year....Sparky Anderson
Yes. The thinking that you can get a certain player for cheaper at the same draft pick is wishful at best.
There is a premium on QBs. They get paid more than others that are drafted around the same time.
Anyone who is willing to take a lower value contract than would be expected is telling you something. He and his agent know that they should not be being picked that high. ie. Aaron Curry last year.
true
Whether it’s a DT or a safety or something else, the money for a non-QB will be about the same. It’s all about salary slotting. That frees up Schwartz and Mayhew to take the BPA……Suh or Berry.
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
Yes
And if that happens then I will say that they honestly drafted for talent, with money as a secondary consideration. If the Lions draft Okung at pick 2, then I will say it was because money was the main factor, not talent.
Oh you didn't know?? You're ass better CALLLLLLLL SOMEBODY!!!!!
Good catch, Footstock
I was thinking the same thing. That’s the safe “draft mode” answer by Schwartz at this point. The draft is drawing nearer.
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
Resoning Behind McCoy over Suh
Ok first off I am totally scared of Okung now, someone on another post said Millen thinks we should draft Okung. If that is true there is no way in hell I would draft Okung. On the McCoy topic. If you listen to the interview with Schwartz you realize he is more of our type of player. Suh was in a different defensive scheme in college and would have to learn new technique to play our system where McCoy played our system in college. When I played defensive line in a 3-4 defense in HS our coach had a three step rule for the linemen, I HATED it. We were not allowed to pass rush at all, just play the run and eat blocks. Suh’s system was not that extreme but he was assigned to eat blocks and play the run first. Our system, and McCoy’s in college is more of a disruptive penetrating system where all 4 lineman play pass first and get the run on the way to the QB. I would not allow the 25 bench reps to alarm you. There is a TE from Florida that played with Tebow, I don’t remember his name, that had 30 or 32 reps on the bench and could not block for crap. Lets remember, being a weight lifter does not make you a great football player, haven’t you learned from the Raiders yet? Leg drive, burst, and ability to use leverage is far more important for a defensive lineman than how much you can bench. You only need to be able to have enough strength to swim, rip, and push. Basically you have to be able to knock the offensive lineman’s hands off you or to a position to put him at a leverage disadvantage. On top of that you can improve strength pretty significantly in a year. Especially since the NFL does not test for human growth hormone.
That statement about Millen with Okung can not be backed up.
In fact today on NFL Network they compared Okung to Ryan Claty (spelling?) and said he prob go to Washington if he is available at 4. As for the McCoy thing my point is just like Jim Schwartz said, “it is information”. I don’t know if that means he is not going to be successful or if Suh will be more successful just because he can bench more. I think you have to look at the tape on the guy and that should be the main thing that sets his value. Not what he can bench.
Love the Okung draft for the reasons you say….I absolutly agree…..But sign Adam Jones, adn hargrove and you really have something here….
Alright Buck! Beeedie beeedie beeedie!
I agree with you go get those 2 guys first, mostly because it would give us something else to talk about besides Okung/Kong/Berry. I can’t beleave this thred is still going.
How many lumps you want Doc?
Opinion from an outsider
If you guys were smart you would draft Okung and then Best at the top of the 2nd. You could use your 3rd on a SS prospect like Asante from Nebraska or Jones from Georgia. I would also sign Pacman to a modest 1 year deal.
It ain't up to us...
…And thank God it’s not because I agree with you, Okung should be the selection (unless Mayhew is capable of trading down and receiving equal value in return).
Yeah...
I just think you guys could have a really dynamic offense next year. Okung protecting the blind side with Backus blowing up holes at LG. A really good rushing attack w/ Kevin Smith and a great compliment back in Best who can take it to the house on any given play. Not mention your franchise QB having time to throw to 3 legit targets in Johnson, Grew, and Burleson. Your front 4 doesn’t look that bad, and you can patch something respectable w/ your secondary: Delmas, Jones (3rd), Pacman, and Houston. Your OLBs aren’t too shabby and your only hole would be at the mike. You know Kirk Morrison of the Raiders has a 3rd round tender on him. You could sign him, and then draft Donovan Warren in the 4th to play FS and move Delmas to SS.
by I_Bleed_Red. on Mar 24, 2010 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
For those of you excited about a trade down scenario where we still safely get Eric Berry in the 1st..........read the same article
Mayhew was asked 2 seperate questions.
When asked which player might be the target for the team that’s moving up, Mayhew said he didn’t ask and he didn’t care because he’s more worried about what Detroit’s doing. He also said that the Lions won’t trade down past a certain point in the first round, but he wouldn’t identify what that position is.
With the KC Chiefs a legitamate risk to take Eric Berry at #5, that point that the Lions may not trade past is likely #4 if they want Berry.
When asked if Okung was far and away the best tackle available in the draft, Mayhew said, "I would say there are two tackles who would have to be considered the best.’’
The point here is that these are 2 seperate questions, and the writer of the article tried to connect the answers to each other. One could just as easily ask the 2nd question about Berry or Suh or whoever and try to connect the answer to the first question to that.
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
Can someone explain to me
How if everyone is all over Backus’s ass at LT and him being so inadequate there, how is him sliding inside to guard going to make him so exceptional????If he struggles at LT he should struggle just as much at LG. A position that he has NEVER PLAYED!!!!!!! Unless it was in Jr. High.
How many lumps you want Doc?
I guess it depends on how he is struggling at LT.
If he is mainly having trouble with speed rushers or guys that can mix it up effectively [which LTs don’t have trouble with DEs like that?], but holds up against bull rushers he would probably be able to move inside and still be effective.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
