on the whole Berry vs Suh arguement
by Waitingfortheroar on Mar 9, 2010 1:37 AM EST
54 comments
so in the whole argument I think its a toss up. I was a D-lineman in my time and know how valuable they can be. I also know how tough it can be to get after a QB when he drops 3 steps and gets the ball out every time. I think that its a wash. both are good. Both help each other. Lets let "The Mastermind" and The Schwarts tell us if its so close. Anyways this is something I said in response to the whole you can't draft a safety this high argument.
you gotta measure safeties a couple of couple ways. they're hybrids of good cover backers and physical jam and hit corners. If you can find guys who can cover better than their size and can tackle and lay wood harder than their size they are studs(see ed reed, bob sanders, poloicantspellyournamealuuu). that's it. they murder a guy who catches the ball on a double move. they fill a hole when the front 7 wiffs. they tackle a guy for an 8 yard gain instead of a 40 yard TD. that is no less important than an average or even good corner. in fact they make corners better because corners aren't scared to make mistakes. They make line backers better because they can be more aggressive in the run game. They give the defensive line more time to hit a qb. they change every play by half a second. they give the offense more attempts. They make teams better. Is taking a safety at 2 pretty high? yes! Is it unreasonable no! Now is Suh or Berry more of an impact player?!?! Thats the only real question! I am at a toss up!!!!!
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credit det for
the mastermind. unless I have names mixed up
I have a 9" personality
by Waitingfortheroar on Mar 9, 2010 1:38 AM EST reply actions
I also coined " Maywartz"....
only be cause I am to lazy to type " Mayhew and Schwartz" every other sentence. ; )
if the shoe fits...get another one just like it - George Carlin
My bad cruize
im still learning who everyone is.
I have a 9" personality
by Waitingfortheroar on Mar 9, 2010 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
just messin' with you...I honestly dont care...about getting credit for this or that
if the shoe fits...get another one just like it - George Carlin
haha
well either way I just didn’t want people to think I was jackin it. I hope that mayhew lives up to your nickname so we can start destroying this division.
I have a 9" personality
by Waitingfortheroar on Mar 9, 2010 12:59 PM EST up reply actions
berry is good ss/fs but is he a great ss/fs idonot know if he is beacuse if you lock at the combine taylor mays had great combine also earl thomas has alot of same skills as berry soret like debate between suh and mccoy over who best ss/fs in the draft. also major wright had great combine and shows that he has some of skills as top 3 ss/fs that will be drafted in the 1rd so if you are the lions do draft berry at the 2pick in draft or take best dt at bpa or ot bpa witch real team need.
A lot of Berry's value comes from his ability to play Corner
Whether he can actually do that at the next level is unknown but it makes him a more valuable commodity.
The Bringers of Hope: Stafford - Delmas - C. Johnson - Pettigrew - Levy - Hill - Schwartz
Zack Follett: he will hurt your mind.
thats a great point
Hyp he is extremely versitile
I have a 9" personality
by Waitingfortheroar on Mar 9, 2010 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
+2, Delmas also played some corner
It means they’re fast and have man cover skills and man cover experience, which is what Schwartz is looking for in his safeties. Versatile and valuable indeed…..as Delmas has proven.
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
I would like him to make better decisions on
when to wrap up and when to go for the knock out
but i am still a huge Delmas backer!
http://cmufootball.blogspot.com/
I think ET will be a much better value at 20 or wherever he goes
than EB at 2
http://cmufootball.blogspot.com/
by CapitolLions on Mar 9, 2010 11:24 AM EST up reply actions
we don't have another pick
in th 20’s. my point was that saying safeties can’t get drafted high because of what position they play is stupid. If theyre the best player they are the best player. period. take the best player when you have a below average roster.
I have a 9" personality
by Waitingfortheroar on Mar 9, 2010 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
I know we dont
I was just stating that he would be a better value where he is drafted than EB will be.
Said nothing about us drafting either
http://cmufootball.blogspot.com/
He also wont be the BPA at 2
Regardless who goes #1
Berry good. but he isn’t better now nor does he have a higher upside than Suh or McCoy
http://cmufootball.blogspot.com/
Explain that please Capitol...
You completely ignore the analysis of this whole post and offer no counterpoint.
JF
Louis Delmas, Eric Berry, Kyle Wilson and Chris Houston - 313 Missile Squadron - Seek and Destroy!
Best article/comments on the Lions' Draft Philosophy - READ
by Lions Rant Artist on Mar 10, 2010 2:54 PM EST up reply actions
It might be stupid, but it's reality
You guys who refuse to take in account that safeties rarely go top five will be disappointed when Berry does not go number two. I don’t like it either, but it’s reality. Anyone who argues that point is far too biased anyway.
DT's ALSO rarely go top 5..........it applies to THEM, too
Using that argument to argue against Berry ALSO argues against Suh or McCoy.
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
You are right.... to an extent.
But are you going to take a quarterback, defensive end or tackle? Most likely not. That leaves defensive tackle, corner or safety – based on value and need. Which position is more deserving of the contract? No question the answer is DT.
I know you hate this, GR… but it’s simply true. The Lions WILL, like every team in the league, value each player and position according to contract value. I know that throws a massive wrench in your theory, so you’ve chosen to ignore it and then argue it to no end. Everyone besides you and LRA know that these factors will be taken into consideration. Sorry that it doesn’t work for you personally… but it just the way thinks work.
So we're not going BPA?
We’re going most worthy contract available according to the history of the draft, even though it has what, a 20% success rate? Pretty smart thinking.
I’m counting on Maywartz to break this cycle of ridiculous value at the position thing. Historically dumb, and if we stick to it, continuously stupid.
JF
Louis Delmas, Eric Berry, Kyle Wilson and Chris Houston - 313 Missile Squadron - Seek and Destroy!
Best article/comments on the Lions' Draft Philosophy - READ
by Lions Rant Artist on Mar 10, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
Oh by the way
Franchise tags set for 2010 –
- Safety: 6.455 million
- DT: 7.003 million
So where do you get this value each contract and position according to contract value? Because I definitely don’t see it. You say I don’t realize these factors will be taken into consideration… what factors? That they’re damn near the same contract value? Not to mention safety is BY FAR the most important defensive position.
JF
Louis Delmas, Eric Berry, Kyle Wilson and Chris Houston - 313 Missile Squadron - Seek and Destroy!
Best article/comments on the Lions' Draft Philosophy - READ
by Lions Rant Artist on Mar 10, 2010 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
I agree that they are close, but can you see...
a Safety… even an Ed Reed type, getting Albert Haynesworth money? No. The reason is value and impact for contract dollar. This is the thing that you and GRLion are missing in your argument. A dominant defensive tackle (on average) is more valuable and has more impact than a Safety. I don’t set that value… NFL teams do and it’s just a fact that it’s a pay for performance system.
NFL teams are willing to shell out more coin for a player who is dominant in a certain position more than others. Safety is not traditionally one of those high-impact, high-contract positions. Again… I didn’t make those rules. The position and their overall impact sets those contractual boundaries. I just make it a point to factor this situation into my opinion regarding who I think the Lions will take because I KNOW that the front office is factoring it in as well.
Not so fast
NFL teams are willing to shell out more coin for a player who is dominant in a certain position more than others. Safety is not traditionally one of those high-impact, high-contract positions. Again… I didn’t make those rules. The position and their overall impact sets those contractual boundaries. I just make it a point to factor this situation into my opinion regarding who I think the Lions will take because I KNOW that the front office is factoring it in as well.
How do you know that Jim Schwartz and Mayhew aren’t changing those “rules”? Because it seems in retrospect they are. What other team has the safety calling shots for the entire d? nobody? Who else uses their safeties as intricately and as much for as many things as the lions? nobody?
If this was Millen drafting with Schwartz, no doubt Suh is the pick, but I think Maywartz is ahead of the NFL in this regard and they could be game changers in this theory for years to come. Because safety is easily becoming the MOST important defensive position IN THE NFL, especially on our team. If this was college, yeah, Suh is the lock for the last recruiting spot, but this isn’t. It’s the ever-changing NFL where safeties are the most effective weapon on a general scale against the RUN AND PASS. Unless Suh can get to the QB or RB in 1.5 seconds EVERYTIME he isn’t going to be more effective than Berry, whom will be able to get to EVERY play on the field with the exception of a long bomb to the opposite side of the field, which would be playing into Delmas’ hand.
JF
Louis Delmas, Eric Berry, Kyle Wilson and Chris Houston - 313 Missile Squadron - Seek and Destroy!
Best article/comments on the Lions' Draft Philosophy - READ
by Lions Rant Artist on Mar 10, 2010 3:20 PM EST up reply actions
How do you know they "are" changing those rules?
I think you are taking some excessive liberties here. Schwartz and Mayhew had a really good draft last year, but they have a LOT to prove. Mayhew is also the SAME guy who brought in Philip Buchanon, Grady Jackson, Bryant Johnson, Dennis Northcutt, Daunte Culpepper, traded for Anthony Henry… and the list goes on. They also took Derrick Williams in the third round of that great draft… that may have been a mistake. Be careful about giving these two “deity” labels before they have proven themselves.
You act as if these two are changing the face of the NFL. At this point in both of their careers, I find statements like that pretty comical. I think very highly of both of them, but let’s give them another offseason or two before verbally polishing their nobs.
As for Delmas calling the defensive plays… it was because he has good football smarts and also that…. there was NO ONE ELSE to do it! LOL
That doesn’t mean that Schwartz was necessarily being overly innovative… it might mean that… but it might also mean that he had no other choice. If Delmas had the best ability to call the plays for the 2009 Lions, it doesn’t mean he would have been doing it on the Steelers or Titans or Bears or any other team. This is what I mean about taking liberties with quotes and reading into comments exactly what you are looking to get out of them!
+1
JF
Louis Delmas, Eric Berry, Kyle Wilson and Chris Houston - 313 Missile Squadron - Seek and Destroy!
Best article/comments on the Lions' Draft Philosophy - READ
by Lions Rant Artist on Mar 10, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
i think hes goin in the top 15
and no…he aint better than Berry…he might have more potential, but definately not better than Berry at this point of their careers
The beginning of the end of the misery
Great Post
The worst argument ever is saying you cant take a safety that high. Reed,Polomalu, and Sanders would all go top 2 if they were in their respective drafts again. Plus DTs are not suppose to go that high either so in that case we should take the 5 best player on the board in Okung!? worst idea ever. He will bust.
I don't know if he's a bust or not.
But if he looks to be better than Berry and Suh according to the FO its better than drafting a dude on positional value. and thanks.
I have a 9" personality
by Waitingfortheroar on Mar 9, 2010 12:56 PM EST up reply actions
+1, Fish
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
+100 Fish
JF
Louis Delmas, Eric Berry, Kyle Wilson and Chris Houston - 313 Missile Squadron - Seek and Destroy!
Best article/comments on the Lions' Draft Philosophy - READ
by Lions Rant Artist on Mar 10, 2010 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
Fish...
you can choose to disregard the contract a Safety would receive at the #2 pick if you wish, but the front office will not. They have to take it into consideration and will. If Eric Berry is heads-and-shoulders above the rest, then you have to consider paying the guy. But it still makes him the highest paid safety in the league. You are giving the guy like $30MM guaranteed and a max contract of likely over $70MM!!! For a Safety! That’s an argument worth discussing and one Mayhew is having with his staff right now. So don’t dismiss it so quickly…….
DT vs Safety
I’ve been working on some research lately on where good defensive tackles and safeties are found throughout the draft and while I’m not quite finished with gathering all the info yet..It is a clear result that a starting Safety in the current NFL roster can be had in the later rounds much more than a starting Defensive Tackle.
With that being said, I absolutely love the ‘idea’ of having Berry paired up with Delmas in the backfield, BUT as I’ve said all along. This defensive line has seen the most improvement this offseason and it went from possibly the worst in the league to top 15 at best.
Why stop there!?!?
Adding Suh will help us compete in the NFC North for years and even though it’s more of a passing division now, a great front that pressures can be a huge step forward…example..Vikings, Packers, Bears of a few years back….the Lions have never had an opportunity to be this good and why not make the DT a position of strength rather than a position filled. Yes paying pairing Suh up with the high salaried Williams will force the Lions to invest millions of dollars on that D Line but with front loaded contracts of KVB and hopefully Suh, that won’t matter as much in this uncapped year.
Both players bring tremendous value to their respectable positions but a Safety can be had in the later rounds that can contribute to an impressive D Line, an improving Linebacking play, and that secondary along Delmas.
I guess it just depends on your point of view and what position you value most but I still say take Suh if he’s there, if not then I’d be more than glad to take Eric Berry no matter how high the pick is.
www.prosportsdraft.webs.com
Hey, or a DT can be had in the later rounds too....or we can trade for one, like we just did!
I guess it just depends on your point of view and what position you value most
No, Schwartz doesn’t think like that. Schwartz drafts the PLAYER, not the POSITION. Schwartz takes the “BPA who FITS”. That’s Eric Berry. Suh is unlikely.
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
You misunderstood
When I put “what position YOU value most”…What I ment by that was YOU not Schwartz or the front office. That’s why I don’t ever see us agreeing on one guy over the other. If your a FAN who values the DT position more or played linemen then off course you’d pick Suh but if you think a Safety can help out this team more then its Berry.
www.prosportsdraft.webs.com
I don't value either
I value you the best player available that will help our team most.
JF
Louis Delmas, Eric Berry, Kyle Wilson and Chris Houston - 313 Missile Squadron - Seek and Destroy!
Best article/comments on the Lions' Draft Philosophy - READ
by Lions Rant Artist on Mar 10, 2010 3:06 PM EST up reply actions
Because
Why stop there!?!?
What help is the #1 DL if we have no left safety or CB to boot? I don’t think having the best front 7 is going to help beat great teams. Just ask the Jets. Ripped apart by Manning with quick passes, completely nullifying the NFLs best defense.
JF
Louis Delmas, Eric Berry, Kyle Wilson and Chris Houston - 313 Missile Squadron - Seek and Destroy!
Best article/comments on the Lions' Draft Philosophy - READ
by Lions Rant Artist on Mar 10, 2010 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
What help it a All- Pro CB...if you are not getting any front line penetration?
It goes both ways. Manning rip apart the Jets. Because they got no penetration. Even with a very good secondary. Give any QB time and he will rip you apart.
if the shoe fits...get another one just like it - George Carlin
Absolutely...
it depends greatly on point of view. BOTH players would be great additions to the Lions and BOTH players would bring a unique skillset and be guys we can build around. I just think that this year, the BPA happens to be a valued player at a value position… Ndamukong Suh. I’ll proudly wear an Eric Berry jersey if he’s selected, but I think it’s unlikely.
+1000
Have nothing against either player and will be ultra excited if either one is picked, I just happen to think Suh is the BPA
The Bringers of Hope: Stafford - Delmas - C. Johnson - Pettigrew - Levy - Hill - Schwartz
Zack Follett: he will hurt your mind.
by Hyperion Ecta on Mar 9, 2010 6:59 PM EST up reply actions
Berry or suh Berry or Suh
This is the question I ask you.
Berry or Suh berry or Suh.
How many more times can I ask you.
Berry or Suh Berry or Suh.
I can’t pick both of you.
Berry or Suh Berry or Suh.
whom do we get with pick number two.
Berry or Suh Berry or Suh.
One of you will wear Honolulu blue.
Berry or Suh Berry or Suh
forget about okung and Mccoy its all about you.
Berry or Suh Berry or Suh
the only question we need the answer to
Berry or Suh Berry or Suh.
I think we need a new topic how about you?
Berry or Suh Berry or Suh
can’t we just be happy with either of you.
Berry or Suh…Berry or Suh….Berry…or…Suh?
The best there is, The best there was, and the best there ever will be - Bret the Hitman hart
LOL, it's the daily Suh/McCoy/Berry post!
At least we got a song this time. =)
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
I am the one guy around here
who is just happy to be in this spot and would be exstatic over either pick.
The best there is, The best there was, and the best there ever will be - Bret the Hitman hart
Good way to look at it.
I’ve said for several months now, that I prefer Suh, but would be happy with either player.
I too will be happy with either Suh or Berry
No matter which one…..as long as it is one of them or a great deal to move down.
Oh you didn't know?? You're ass better CALLLLLLLL SOMEBODY!!!!!
Wow great profiler
Awesome song. How long it take you to come up with that? That’s actually pretty impressive and I laughed the whole time. lol
JF
Louis Delmas, Eric Berry, Kyle Wilson and Chris Houston - 313 Missile Squadron - Seek and Destroy!
Best article/comments on the Lions' Draft Philosophy - READ
by Lions Rant Artist on Mar 10, 2010 3:08 PM EST up reply actions
took me a good 5 or 10 minutes LOL
I need to make a point and creativly glad you liked it.
The best there is, The best there was, and the best there ever will be - Bret the Hitman hart
by The Profiler on Mar 10, 2010 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
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