Breaking Down The Detroit Lions Defense
If you wish to read about the Packers defense, you can read my post over at the SideLion Report on them.
The Detroit Lions came into this season believing that their defense was fully rebuilt with the offseason acquisitions of Eric Wright, Stephen Tulloch, Justin Durant, and Nick Fairley, in addition to already having great players like Kyle Vanden Bosch, Cliff Avril, Louis Delmas and Ndamukong Suh. Yet, the Lions go into the final week of regular season play ranked 21st in the NFL in points allowed. They are 26th against the run and 14th against the pass, which would let you believe that the Lions have quite a bit of rebuilding still left to do.
That isn't to say that the Lions have not progressed in the last three years. When Martin Mayhew took over this team in 2008, the Detroit Lions were one of the worst defenses in NFL history. They were one of only three teams since 2001 that allowed more than 30 points a game ('09 Lions and '01 Colts being the other two). In hindsight, the 22.8 points they are allowing right now looks pretty good compared to what we are used to from Lions defenses. Still, the Lions coaching staff was given a ton of talent and depth to work with compared to many others teams around the league, and I think they could have done a far better job.
Right now, the Cincinnati Bengals, Miami Dolphins, Tennessee Titans and Seattle Seahawks have all managed to produce top 10 defenses in the NFL. When you look at their respective rosters, I don't think anyone could argue that any of those teams have more talent or depth than the Lions do, yet they have managed to hold teams to nearly a field goal less than the Lions. This is not to say that Gunther Cunningham or Jim Schwartz needs to be replaced in the offseason, but I certainly feel that Cunningham should be on the hot seat going into next season.
I feel that the Lions defensive problems are a two-pronged thing right now. Clearly, the penalties are hurting them on both sides of the ball. The Lions currently rank 30th in the league with 113 penalties for 914 yards. Basically, the team as a whole loses nearly 61 yards every game just because of stupid mistakes. I wish I had stats to show that most of these penalties are on the defensive side of the ball, but I couldn't find any such stats. Still, I think anyone that watches Lions games knows that our defense commits far more penalties than our offense.
The second part of the issue to me is the scheme. The Lions play a type of defensive front called the "wide nine." It refers to the fact that both defensive ends on the line play the nine technique, meaning they line up on the outside shoulder of the offensive tackle. This means that they are not in position to defend the C gaps -- the gap between a tackle and a guard -- like other defensive ends would be in a regular defense. In general, this shouldn't really be a problem since outside linebackers can simply move up and fill up the gaps if need be, but that is something that is easier said than done.

The idea behind the wide nine is simple: flow everything to the middle where linebackers and defensive tackles can clean up the play. This means that outside linebackers are basically treated like defensive ends in a way since their job on many running downs is simply to plug a gap and redirect the running back to the middle/center of the field. Unfortunately, all hell breaks loose if a back or quarterback breaks the wide nine containment or if an offense finds a way to manipulate the C gaps. A perfect example of a player breaking the containment against the Lions would be Joe Webb, who rushed for 109 yards on the Lions on just seven carries in basically a half of football. The brunt of those yards came on his 65-yard run, where he got around the defensive end on the play and simply just outran the rest of the defenders.
I think overall the wide nine is a love it or hate it type of scheme. I know there are many fans and coaches that love the scheme. Personally, I think it would be a great scheme for a team that needs to maximize the amount of pass rush with a minimum amount of talent -- kind of like the Lions of '09 or even '10. But it doesn't make sense to me to play such an aggressive and risky scheme when you have a great deal of raw talent to work with on the defensive line. I don't think the Lions are going to abandon it anytime soon, but I certainly hope it doesn't cost them a playoff game in the future.
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I thought the Lions played wide nine on only one side.
as opposed to the Eagles who play wide nine on both sides. Either way, this is a problem with one of Detroit’s other defensive philosophies. In most defenses, the task of maintaining outside contain falls on the ends. Well, with Detroit flowing to the middle it falls on the outside LB’s to keep outside contain. This is a problem because those LB’s are also supposed to crash and fill the holes between the tackles and the ends in the wide nine. It is a flaw in a the defensive scheme that needs to be corrected.
LITTLE MAN IN BACKFIELD! LITTLE MAN IN BACKFIELD! GO STEFAN LOGAN!
wide nine
Interesting prospective. It would be nice if they mixed it up a little . Also really wish they would blitz a bit more. Mix in a corner or safety once in while. it would give the offence a little more to prepare for. GO LIONS !! Pass the kool aid please.
The way , the Truth and the life.
About time someone has pointed this out.
The only part of the defence that has played up to potential has been the secondary, and that is because the bar was set so low for that group.
The D Line has consistently underperformed, and the linebackers have been up and down. Tulloch, Houston, and Avril have been the defenders who have made the most plays this year and played the most consistent, but the rest of the starters have been playing well below their capabilities.
I hope to see much more play from Lawrence Jackson, Willie Young, Nick Fairley, and Sammie Lee Hill next year, with hopefully a decrease in snaps for KVB and Corey.
The LB corps needs much better play from Levy, and perhaps more action for Carpenter or one of the young guys [Palmer or Hogue].
The secondary needs some consistency and better safety play. Perhaps Berry and Alphonso can start the next year healthy to give us some improved corner play too.
For the playoffs, I just hope the defence can raise its play so that we do not have to rely on the offence scoring 30 points a game.
"I’m sorry for all the people who want us to run the ball 40 times a game, but we’re going to put the ball in No. 9’s hands and he’s going to make plays for us like he did today," Lions coach Jim Schwartz said. Amen to that Jim!
On PFF
they point out that Willie Young would be the best pass rusher on a per play average, if he had enough snaps to qualify. Unfountently, he is not getting utilized enough
that will likely change next year.
I’ve got a feeling we will be losing Avril.
by Eddie Apoc on Jan 1, 2012 3:15 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Ok let me point this out.
There is really no way that Gunther should be on the hot seat next year because he has done great with what he had. We were one of the best defenses in the league against the pass and QB’s before all the injuries. We were top 5 in fact in both catagories. We were the number one third down D and had only given up 2 plays of 40 yards or more through the air.
Did it suck seeing the D give up so many rushing yards sure but they were also working with a lot of injuries. In that Minny game we had so many that we couldn’t even play our nickle defense which contributed to the big plays that they had. We held down NO without Suh, Delmas, or Houston while also losing Fairley.
Up until the thanksgiving day game our defense was one of the best in the league and even held down Aaron Rodgers before all the injuries (who got burned on the long james jones TD our backup safety Harris) so lighten up a little. Also when you give up a 65 yard TD to a QB its going to make your run defense look much worse.
Last point Miami does have a good D but who has Cincy played? or Tennessee for that matter to deserve a good D rating. When you play a lot of bad teams your numbers are going to look better than they really are.
We are taught from an early age how to deal with failure not success. (If at first you don't succeed try try again, if at first you succeed then what....) -Charlie Sheen
I come ready, when I came out the womb I was ready, tell them mama that's why you had me, you knew I was ready. -Moss
Dominating your opposition physically is great and all, but confounding them mentally is sooo much more fun.
2-15-DEN 44(14:36) (Shotgun) K.Moreno up the middle to DEN 47 for 3 yards (N.Suh). FUMBLES (N.Suh), RECOVERED by DET-N.Suh at DEN 47. N.Suh to DEN 47 for no gain (K.Moreno). FUMBLES (K.Moreno), recovered by DET-C.Houston at DEN 47. C.Houston to DEN 47 for no gain (O.Franklin). Denver challenged the fumble ruling, and the play was REVERSED. (Shotgun) K.Moreno up the middle to DEN 49 for 5 yards (S.Tulloch).
Sorry, but we had a hard time stopping other teams from moving the ball.
Like Carolina, Minnesota, and Oakland. The defence looked good against San Fran [even though they could not stop them when it counted], San Diego, KC, Denver, and Atlanta. Really did not play really well in any other game for most of the game.
"I’m sorry for all the people who want us to run the ball 40 times a game, but we’re going to put the ball in No. 9’s hands and he’s going to make plays for us like he did today," Lions coach Jim Schwartz said. Amen to that Jim!
Tennesse has played NOLA, Houston, ATL among others
Cincy plays in the toughest division in football this season.
It doesn’t matter what our rankings were. It matters what it is now. If they can’t even rank in the top half of the NFL with the amount of talent, then Gun should be on the hot seat.
House of Spears | My Detroit Lions/NFL Blog
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I believe...
What Redwolf333 is trying to say is that had it not been for those injuries, we would still be ranked in the top half of the defenses in the NFL. Up to the point that the injuries happened, we were top 5 in several categories. Now, as you pointed out, we are in the lower half of the NFL.
My point is
Injuries are a common part of an NFL season. Every team has injuries. We have actually been fairly healthy if you compare to years past. Its not a valid excuse to rank in the bottom fourth of the NFL for defense for a team with top 10 defensive talent.
House of Spears | My Detroit Lions/NFL Blog
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Latif is correct. Our defensive injuries have not been serious.
Every team has to deal with some injuries. The Lions secondary was real beat up last year too.
Injuries are no excuse. Gunther is not doing very much with what he has.
"I’m sorry for all the people who want us to run the ball 40 times a game, but we’re going to put the ball in No. 9’s hands and he’s going to make plays for us like he did today," Lions coach Jim Schwartz said. Amen to that Jim!
According to the actual stats
They aren’t very good, and I think most people’s eye test tells them that they are far far away from the 2nd best defense in the NFL.
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No, don't break it down!
I watch the Detroit Lions and I....
by Lions & Panthers Fan on Dec 31, 2011 9:28 PM EST reply actions
It would be interesting to see if we go to other schemes and add more blitzes as our secondary improves
I think one of the reasons is that we’re better against the pass than the run is the fact that we rarely blitz and always play LBs in coverage to help out the secondary.
Formerly WestSideLionsFan. Fan of all Detroit sports teams.
ok i think we need
A great db….. Just one. I see one of the biggest needs in the defensive backfield,don’t get me wrong they have played great this year! But I’d love to have phonso and Houston splitting time on one side and a shut down corner on the other…. Or a great saftey to go with delmas…. After delays and spievey what happens…. I feel like our line is more than solid…… Our lb’s are solid with room for improvement…. On d I feel like our weakest link is our defensive backfield…. I mean It’s doing an ok job….but I’d love to be able to just strangle opposing passing offenses! Imagine if all we needed to win is 2td’s a game? I’m just wishing but what the hell….. We’re in the playoffs…. I can do that,lol. We won’t have a top draft pick…. So trade for Jake long and draft a db! Keep avril….tulloch….and whoever else… I know….a big wishlist…. Have a safe new year folks….be safe….
by hostage42 on Dec 31, 2011 11:22 PM EST via mobile reply actions
The defensive numbers
are skewed on this team.
How many points were given up by the offense and special teams?
I think Stafford has like five Pick 6’s and a fumble TD. Penalties are a big problem on Defense, too many extending drives and easy points.
The Defense been much better on 3rd down this season than any Lions team I can remember.
"It's my first big league win and you can't beat that. I'm kind of elated to tell you the truth. I wanted to continue the streak of our starting pitchers. That's 5-for-5 right there." Justin Verlander
five?
I remember maybe two, and that doesn’t change a whole lot since our quarterback is likely to have thrown fewer of those compared to other, more average, qbs around the league.
House of Spears | My Detroit Lions/NFL Blog
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every single defense in existence has gaps that need to be filled. There are 5 offensive linemen and generally 7 linemen and linebackers to fill the gaps between them. The wide 9 is just one of the one-gap schemes for defensive linemen, leaving holes that the linebackers have to fill. I’m of the opinion that a change in scheme would only lead to different (but not necessarily better) one-gap scheme or a two gap scheme that would limit the pass rush of the linemen. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, so it’s easy to say the lions should have performed better. Given the poor state of the secondary, they have done absolutely remarkable. Perhaps upgrades in personnel in the back 7 would lead to improved results. In any event, I wouldn’t give gunther the boot just for some overperforming secondaries and underperforming run defense.
holyschwartz.wordpress.com
what about
The special teams coach? He should go….. I don’t know how anyone can defend him unless he pulls a miracle out of his start in the playoffs,lol. I hope they find a better st coach in the off season.
by hostage42 on Jan 1, 2012 3:36 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
didn't say boot
I said he needs to be under the microscope. He will have one of the most talented defensive lines football next season (like this season). If he can’t even produce a top 5 team in sacks let alone top 10 defense, then I think we need to look elsewhere AFTER next season.
House of Spears | My Detroit Lions/NFL Blog
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didnt mean gun....meant special teams coach!
The st is by far our biggest weakness on the lions! A change needs to be made! Whether It’s in philosophy or personal or scheme…. Our return “defense” is horrible…. And the next time we return a punt or kick off for a td will the first time in a longtime.
by hostage42 on Jan 1, 2012 10:45 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
um
“The Detroit Lions came into this season believing that their defense was fully rebuilt with the offseason acquisitions of….”
No they didnt lol. How many times has Schwartz or Mayhew said the works never done, this isnt the finish line, a roster is never perfect…….it was the FANS that thought the defense was set.
GET RID OF THE WIDE 9!!!
"To achieve victory, we must mass our forces at the hub of all power and movement, the enemies center of gravity." -Carl von Clausewitz
Yeah
There is work always to be done. No doubt. My point was that there weren’t any players that were starting that were simply doing so because the Lions couldn’t find anyone else.
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I think we have proved we cannot use the wide 9
We have a solid linebacker core and a solid defensive line. We ran it for a whole season and it hasn’t worked. We don’t have enough sacks to justify how awful it makes our run defense IMHO.
Penalties are clearly one of the biggest problems with this team
Especially all those personal fouls — nearly 30 of them this year. If the Lions could cut those by half I think the defense would look much, much better.
The other issue is play discipline. Vanden Bosch and Levy are two of the worst at containing the edge. Too often KVB these guys race inside and allow a runner to bounce to the outside for big gains. Thanks to KVB for providing great leadership, but he’s not getting the job done on the field, in spite of all his sacks. We should be figuring out how to get Levy to play better too. The line actually does quite well in short-yardage situations.
Third is that the secondary hasn’t always played consistently. Eric Wright has not played all that well, and Spievey goes for play fakes too hard and leaves the CBs hung out to dry.
All in all there’s a lot of learning still to be done on this team. But if they play more often like they did against the Chargers, it’ll be a great defense.
No slogans. Just win!!!

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