Draft Value Part 2: Talent, Effort, and Instincts
Since this is draft season we have been going around, and around, over different players. The debate often centers on whether the player represents a good "value" at a certain position in the draft. I think it might be interesting to hear what our posters think that "value" actually means. So I will explain what I look for in draft value and we can talk about it for a bit
I have a problem with this little project. There is a ton of things to talk about concerning evaluation of players for value. I am going to make it a bit easier by breaking up the evaluation into pieces so that we can talk about each aspect individually. That will make it easier to digest and help keep the discussions more on track. It also has the effect of making them seem like separate issues, when in fact they are all part of the same problem.
This article talks about how talent, effort, and instincts are all part of the formula to determine the impact of a player in the draft. This is one of five article that are planned for the series, though I might add one or two more if the first ones are well accepted. So lend your thoughts to the discussion and have some fun!
Talent Trumps All? NOT!
The primary consideration of player value, based on impact, is usually talent. But talent does not make a player successful on its own. There has been a long history of talented NFL rookies that crash and burn. Certainly talent is part of the package, but it has to be married with effort and instincts to really come out.
If you cannot justify the pick based on talent, then you need a rationale to explain why the player will have impact. Guys with a "high motor" or "great instincts" can often perform at a level that is higher than their raw talent might indicate.
Certainly. the ultimate player will have it all. They will combine great talent with a consistently strong effort and excellent instincts. You should look at all three of these factors as being additive. But which of them is most important? The answer to that is not simple.
All three of these factors must be present at an acceptable level. A highly talented player will not perform with impact if they do not work hard or they cannot recognize a play as it is develops. They will just be a frustration for the fans and the coaches, because they will show flashes of their potential, yet never fully realize it.
It is probably better to draft an average talent that works hard on every play and has great instincts over a lazy player with talent. A hard working player with good instincts will always be around the ball and making plays despite having less talent. They will have more consistent impact on the game than the lazy player with greater talent.
There is no clear formula for this evaluation. The best approach is to look for below average levels of talent, effort, or instincts and then grade the player down accordingly for each deficiency.
The Little Engine That Could
We have all seen stories of people that were at a great disadvantage, but prevailed anyway because they simply outworked their opponent. This characteristic has become highly respected in our society, and football is no different.
Sometimes you will hear that a player has a "high motor" of that they are an "effort" player. Those are signs that they will work hard and do what is required to achieve success. What you really don't want to see are statements that the player has a questionable work ethic.
I don't care how much talent a player has, it means little if they are not going to apply it. In my evaluations, this is one of the most serious criticisms that can be leveled at a player and I will often eliminate a player from my draft board entirely based entirely on this issue.
Certainly there are some players that can overcome a lack of motivation, but it is rarely on their own initiative. They are usually too lazy to solve their own laziness. It usually takes an outside influence to motivate them and get them to refocus their efforts. There are some coaches that excel at these types of reclamation projects and they might be less worried than I am about players with low motivation.
You Can't Hit What You Can't See
Lack of instincts is an even more difficult problem in some ways. What we like to call instincts is the ability to read and react to the play. But what that really means is that the player has to be able to process what they are seeing happen on the field and make very quick decisions on how to respond. The faster they can recognize what is happening and take proper actions, the better their instincts are.
Instincts are required on both sides of the ball. The offense uses reads for many things like picking up blitzes and knowing which route to run when going out for a pass. The defense uses reads for pretty much everything since the defense is almost always reacting to what the offense does. All football players benefit from good instincts to some degree. But defensive players live or die based on their ability to read and react.
Some parts of the ability to read a play can be learned. A player that is a dedicated student of the game will work hard to learn their opponents plays from film. This knowledge helps them lower the possibilities of which plays might be coming at them based on how the opposing team lines up. This is called a "pre-snap read" and it is very useful.
Once the ball is snapped, the defender will need to quickly recognize which play is being run out of the possibilities they had recognized from their pre-snap read. This is called a "post-snap read" or "reading your keys." Usually it is done by watching which way certain players move. Being able to quickly recognize which exact play is being run allows the defender to get to the point of attack and stop the play for little or no gain. This is also learned by hard work in the film room, but it also requires the ability to recognize keys as a play happens and make quick decisions on the field. That part of a players instinct can take time to develop, and requires playing time. A player may never develop good reactions at all if they have trouble recognizing keys and making quick decisions. Ernie Sims was a good example of this problem.
Get Rid Of Those Wrinkles!
Offensive coordinator will sometimes put "wrinkles" into their playbook to confuse defenders. They put their team in an alignment that causes the opponent to make a specific pre-snap read based on what they have seen on tape. But they will do something different after the snap from what they have ever done before. This is an attempt to use the opponents own preparation against them. It is at this point where true instincts come into play. Being able to "feel" that something is not right and that the other team is suckering you is not something you can learn in a film room. Only players with the highest instincts can recognize these wrinkles immediately and stop them cold.
The "wrinkle" plays are often what cause the players and coaches to huddle up around pictures of what happened on the play while they are on the sideline. The coaches are trying to get their players to understand the new play and account for it in their reads. It is a chess match of moves and counter-moves. To me, this is one of the most fascinating aspects of football. It qualifies football as the most complex and strategic sport on the planet, in my opinion.
It also places a clear demand on the players to be students of the game. Without a consistent work ethic and good instincts the talent will be lost in the wash. Talent, effort, and instincts are an unbreakable trinity. You cannot evaluate one without considering the others or you just fool yourself with misconceptions.
No Ayers, Aight?
This evaluation is exactly what hurts Akeem Ayers and drops his standing on my draft board. In Ayers I see a player with impressive physical talents that just does not work to apply them consistently. Ayers has the talent to be the most dominant linebacker in college football by a slam dunk. We should be talking about him as a top five pick, but we aren't. The reason for that is that Ayers lacks motivation and has questionable instincts.
Players like this come out every draft. They tantalize us with all the potential they have. The sky is the limit, if only you can get them to put in a consistent effort. I know Ayers has a problem with effort because I have seen him quit on a number of plays on video. When he allows smaller and weaker players to block him out one-on-one then he is not fighting on every play. This is not just my evaluation. It is a pretty consistent feature of most scouting reports on Ayers.
I did not choose Ayers for this example in order to get into a tug-of-war with anybody (yes that means you det32). I chose Ayers because he is the best example, in this draft, of a player who hurt their ranking because their effort and instincts do not match their talent.
So Here We Go Again
Just like before, and for all of these articles, the point is to have a good discussion. If you disagree then great. That is your right and you should say so. All I ask is that you give some actual reasoning for your disagreement. Also, this is not about any specific player. The post is about how you evaluate talent, effort, and instincts. If you hijack the thread to argue about Ayers then you have entirely missed the point and all you are doing is showing that you don't get it. We have plenty of threads to argue about Ayers, so you can do that in one of those.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Pride of Detroit or its writers. FanPosts are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable fans.
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While I agree that you want to have these guys to have all the positives as prospects.
I would expect that most NFL coaches should have the ability [and the arrogance] to make these guys better players. You know, use their motivational skills to inspire these guys, or have a veteran or two to mentor them on how things are done in the NFL. I don’t think thats too much to ask of those coaches. They get paid enough to handle the odd difficult personality.
I think if you just keep taking guys who are high effort and low ceiling, you are going to miss out on some great players who can grow or mature into real impact players in the right environment.
All other things being relatively equal, yes I would always take the guy who is self motivated and has a passion for the game, but those are the easy choices. It rarely works out that way in real life.
"I read one article, I said, 'This guy doesn't know what he's talking about,' " Mayhew said. "Then I read another one, and I thought, 'Wait a minute, they're all saying the same thing.' -Martin Mayhew 2011 regarding Draft Gurus.
Yes, that is true
I don’t actually eliminate players for lack of motivation. I just grade them downward significantly. I know that a lot of coaches can motivate players. That is why I mentioned it. I just realize there is a risk.
I am pretty sure that the coaches tried to motivate Mike Williams. It just didn’t work. He had to get bounced out of the league and get hit over the head with the threat of failure before he understood. Some guys are just like that. They have to learn the hard way. But the hard way caused the Lions to waste a first round pick despite their attempts to motivate him.
There eventually becomes a point where the risk vs reward makes the player worth taking a chance on. But it isn’t in the first round, in my opinion. Starting in the second round you can take more chances.
I agree with you regarding not taking players early that are risky.
But later in the first round it is more of a manageable risk I think. By the way, later to me is somewhere after the top half.
I also like how you differentiated between what I call “football character” and “off field character”. A lot of people get the two mixed up or lump them together.
"I read one article, I said, 'This guy doesn't know what he's talking about,' " Mayhew said. "Then I read another one, and I thought, 'Wait a minute, they're all saying the same thing.' -Martin Mayhew 2011 regarding Draft Gurus.
I can see that.
I think most of us will have different ideas on when it is OK to start taking on some risk in the draft. You say after the top half of the first round. I say starting in the second round. I am sure some folks will take big risk even from pick #1 and others will wait even later than I do. It is part what makes different draft strategies so interesting IMO.
ayers lack of effort has alot to do with being on ucla… if you where o one of the worst Ds (think i read they where ranked 98th of 100…
you would lack some effert as well… when your teamates cuck donkey balls you not going to try as heard… we seen it in the millen years..
with kvb suh ect on his team he will have a reason to tri harder
Hold it a second det32, you have been ragging on Foster because the Washington defence is so lousy.
I seem to remember you saying that’s why Foster’s stats are so impressive. So how come it does not work that way for Ayers too?
Oh yeah, I forgot. Ayers college stats are pretty mediocre.
"I read one article, I said, 'This guy doesn't know what he's talking about,' " Mayhew said. "Then I read another one, and I thought, 'Wait a minute, they're all saying the same thing.' -Martin Mayhew 2011 regarding Draft Gurus.
Cherry picking anyone?
It's a terrible thing to have to tell your fans, who have waited like Detroit's have, that their team won't win it this year. But it's better than lying to them.
--Sparky Anderson
b/c teams ran away for ayers..
and fosters D why bad is better then ucla like i have said 100s of times..
and it dostn matter an way b/c foster is a 2 down LB … not a fit here so stop thinking about him
is it possible
that Rahim Moore has reached such a lofty status as a #1 safety because he was able to tackle all the guys AA couldn’t??
by randalljwhite on Apr 10, 2011 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions
We had an agent post last year and he also fielded questions about being an agent
Search the posts and comments for TE Richard DicksonLSU his agent gave us the low-down
I thought being lazy was a bad thing, So I gave up thinking.
by Wayne Fontes on Apr 10, 2011 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions
LOL
That was classic
"Show me someone with an offseason and I'll show you someone in last place"- Ndamukong Suh ( All Pro, Pro Bowl, Pepsi Rookie of the year, AP defensive rookie of the year, Sporting news rookie of the year)
PCP 4 LIFE
by The Profiler on Apr 10, 2011 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions
FOUND A LINK
http://www.prideofdetroit.com/2010/5/14/1472189/richard-dickson-the-detroit-lions
I thought being lazy was a bad thing, So I gave up thinking.
by Wayne Fontes on Apr 10, 2011 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions
So an agent could
find the team most under pressure to draft his player in a position of need,flood their board with exaggerated stats and glowing rec’s,and carry on the cover of a true long-time fan.Getting his player drafted considerably earlier than he warrrants reaps the player a far more lucrative contract, the agent a correspondingly larger commission.Couple that with a poor spelling,atrocious grammar,and an irascible attitude…..my God…we are in the prescence of GENIUS!!
by randalljwhite on Apr 10, 2011 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions
POD acted with class...
until it was made obvious that this dude was hosting amateur hour..lol…
Yes his boy had some talent, but wow…. he started acting like a coked out Jerry McGuire.
Motown313-"spending a first rounder on the next Jared Devries doesn’t seem like a good gameplan."
Thank you NL12!
And on top of that DET32 you defend his lack of effort because he went to UCLA?
DO YOU SMELL THAT POD? SNIF.. SNIF.. I KNOW THAT SMELL!! IT’S CALLED BÛLLSH!T.
So the reason he quit on some plays or didn’t give a 110% on the rest was that he went to UCLA? What about being blocked maybe even taken out of the play by a RB or WR was caused due to attending UCLA? WOW, so it was UCLAs fault for his lack of shedding blocks and poor instincts? Thank you I didn’t know that. And knowing is half the battle. GO JOE! I Mean GO LINS!
SOMBODY PLEASE POST FOSTER & AYERS STATS SIDE BY SIDE.
COP:"Do you know why I pulled you over Mr. Dunn ?" ME:" Was I speeding officer?" COP:"A lil bit, but I really wanted to see a SORRY ASS DETROIT LIONS FAN UP CLOSE!" He gave me a ticket for 50 in a 45 zone. So I ask him his team. COP: DA BEARS HAHAAHAHAA
by M10 LIONS FAN on Apr 10, 2011 8:24 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
UCLA dosen't do " lack of effort " thats a piss poor excuse in my book as well.

"Show me someone with an offseason and I'll show you someone in last place"- Ndamukong Suh ( All Pro, Pro Bowl, Pepsi Rookie of the year, AP defensive rookie of the year, Sporting news rookie of the year)
PCP 4 LIFE
by The Profiler on Apr 10, 2011 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions
M J D
Q.E.D.
It's a terrible thing to have to tell your fans, who have waited like Detroit's have, that their team won't win it this year. But it's better than lying to them.
--Sparky Anderson
haha
"Show me someone with an offseason and I'll show you someone in last place"- Ndamukong Suh ( All Pro, Pro Bowl, Pepsi Rookie of the year, AP defensive rookie of the year, Sporting news rookie of the year)
PCP 4 LIFE
by The Profiler on Apr 10, 2011 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah he was a slacker too. All those UCLA guys just coast on their physical ability. LOL
"I read one article, I said, 'This guy doesn't know what he's talking about,' " Mayhew said. "Then I read another one, and I thought, 'Wait a minute, they're all saying the same thing.' -Martin Mayhew 2011 regarding Draft Gurus.
by NorthLeft12 on Apr 10, 2011 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions
did i fucking say it was UCLA fault for his poor blockading?? no
it was UCLA fault for his low moral withe turned in to lack of effort don’t fucking put words my mouth
is there a fucking ignor here
go dam you are fucking pissing me off with that…
where the fuck did i say ucla was why his sheding was bad.. plez show me…
did you not watch any of our games over the last 10 years?? did you not see that people didnt give a shit b/c they all ways lost and 1/2 the people shouldnt even be in the nfl let alone starting??
Somebody ran outta gas
with these prices….I understand
by randalljwhite on Apr 11, 2011 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions
and thats why...
I would be opposed to drafting Ayers. We already went through this process with several players on our defense over the last 10 years. I bring up comments from Ernie Sims, Shaun Rogers (he only played when he wanted to), Boss Bailey, Dre Bly, Roy Williams, and Larry Foote (nice comments from a hometown boy). Each of them had contributed to the Lions at some level during their time with the team. Each of them had something negative to say about the morale of the team and blamed the shortfalls of the team on everyone else. They did not take any of the responsibility on themselves. Each of these guys contributed to the attitude in the locker room, yet the morale of the locker room was poor… hmmm, sounds like they needed to take a look in the mirror.
From everything I’ve read about KVB, Suh, Stafford, Best, Backus, Raiola, Delmas, and Levy, the attitude of this team has changed to something positive and believing in themselves. Taking responsibility for their actions and correcting themselves for the betterment of the team- not the individual. Does Ayers really fit that role? Can he come in and take responsiblity for his actions? Will he be an excuse maker on the field? Will he only play hard when he wants to? It shouldn’t be up to the leaders above to motivate their teammates. If you have to constantly motivate someone, it’s a big key that the person isn’t a good fit- regardless of talent. We need leaders, not followers. I don’t see Ayers as a leader. Sorry.
by Detroitfantc on Apr 12, 2011 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
agree TC guy
The Lions are building an identity,it starts with the D-Line.I hope that the players we bring in,either FA or draft,fit the mold of KVB,giving 110% all day.We all have seen the players come and go who have talent oozing from them,but then get outplayed by the scrappy,never say never guy.I think Schwartz is building a team we can not only root for,but be damn proud of.
"I feel a whole lot more like I do now,than I did a while ago"
by randalljwhite on Apr 12, 2011 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
The charactor issue is big
They picked up Zack Follett in the 7th round of the drafts primarily because of his intensity on the field. When he started to fall off the tracks and not give the same effort, the first thing that happened was Gun pulled him to the side and explained why. What was the next thing that happened? He worked HARDER on the practice squad to get playing time. He proved himself on the field on special teams and earned the starting OLB position the following year.
If you put the charactor of the upcoming draft picks into the position that they would start the season on the practice squad, how would they react? Would they cry and complain? Would they use it as motivation? Would they use it as a learning experience? I think its easy to project how players like Suh, Levy, Delmas, Pettigrew, Stafford, and others drafted over the last two years would have reacted. It’s also easy to think about how other players that have been acquired would react… imagine someone with KVB’s intensity on the practice squad. How’d you like to face him on a daily basis while he tries to earn a starting job? That’s what they thought they had with Larry Foote. Too bad it didn’t happen.
by Detroitfantc on Apr 12, 2011 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
a better way to look at it.. but this is not the same lions...
kvb suh CW bur will not let the morial die.. so i am not to worried about it
as far as ayers not being a leader.. he was a capton for 2 years for a reason.. will he be on KVB level of leader? no… but just as much of one as delmas or levy are…
RIP CURTIS CHAIVRE
He was a captain and he set a bad example with low morale?
Man Det32, sometimes the more you defend Ayers the more I don’t like him. The fact that he took plays off and underachieved as a captain is even more disturbing to me.
Ndamukong Suh - Bringing 50's football back to Motown!
typo *LIONS*
COP:"Do you know why I pulled you over Mr. Dunn ?" ME:" Was I speeding officer?" COP:"A lil bit, but I really wanted to see a SORRY ASS DETROIT LIONS FAN UP CLOSE!" He gave me a ticket for 50 in a 45 zone. So I ask him his team. COP: DA BEARS HAHAAHAHAA
Nice points TL
The entire time I’m reading it I’m thinking Ayers. Same with the part about instincts and reacting to plays with E. Sims. I think in the first round you want to find a very good balence between talent, drive, and instinct to get the fullest value from a 1st round pick. But as the draft goes on, motivation, drive, and character imo is the most important things to look for. Like NL12 said, good coaches and players can help coach up a guy and help him become more talented. You can’t coach drive. That’s why J Peterson is gone. That’s why many of us on POD like Casey Matthews because his motor, instincts, and drive are some of the best in the draft. Good post.
by Home in Cleveland, Heart in Detroit on Apr 11, 2011 12:18 AM EDT reply actions
I always tend to value the intangibles pretty highly
I like guys who are smart with a lot of passion and have good character. Talent is of course essential, but someone who only relies on their talent doesn’t sit well with me. A football player to me should desire to play his hardest on every play not only for the team, but for the fans.
RIP Robyn Bailey 1961 - 2010. I love you mum.
LOL. I didn't say you said any of those things.
But to say it was UCLAs fault, a person could assume anything with that statement. Again with the excuses though. Now it’s low morale. What’s next he suffers from low self- of- esteem? That sounds like a personal issue to me.
To compare Ayers situation to the Lions doesn’t work either
COP:"Do you know why I pulled you over Mr. Dunn ?" ME:" Was I speeding officer?" COP:"A lil bit, but I really wanted to see a SORRY ASS DETROIT LIONS FAN UP CLOSE!" He gave me a ticket for 50 in a 45 zone. So I ask him his team. COP: DA BEARS HAHAAHAHAA
I gotta call BS on a part of this but I like the posts
Yo TL – you are a great writer on here, and I enjoy your posts
and like where you are going with the analysis however…
You say it’s not about any one player, but call out Akeem Ayers
who we really don’t know will bust or be a player yet, and in doing so, you had to know you’d be calling out Det32, who has been his most vocal supporter.
I think there are other guys you could have cited, if you didn’t want this to become an Ayers thread. Perhaps examples from past drafts (like Ernie Sims), for guys who actually “busted” when from where we sit, it is hard to say 100% Ayers will do that. We all have to admit that he could end up in Detroit too.
That could have been any of the work out wonders who went high, but didn’t have great tape.
To me it reads like more than a dig at Det32 cause you had to think when writing that , you’d hear his thoughts.
Other than that, I think the talent has to be there (or just about there) and then the intangibles make the player be great – drive, competitive nature, instincts, etc..
I don’t think we’ll see too many non elite athletes in the mix for roster spots in the NFL –
be it through strength, speed, agility, et al.
There might be some cases of less talented players having more impact than more physically , or athletically gifted players, but overall, based on position these guys are all pretty talented athletes so these intangibles are extremely important to evaluate when considering a prospect.
by BillySimsMadeMeDo on Apr 11, 2011 12:48 PM EDT reply actions
not really
He brings up Ayers because Ayers is a perfect example of what he is trying to say. I doubt he would go through all the trouble of writing up a couple of paragraphs just to take an indirect shot at det
House of Spears | My Lions/NFL Blog | De-facto Editor of Blue & Silver Pride
My point was it was an inflammatory "best example" and that the draft has yet to happen
or 32 to about 300 players for the whole draft to choose from, and for a bit it was hijacked, and now I have this debate…
this example was sure to illicit a response from Det32
which is kind of like when you say, " i don’t want you to take this personally but…"
As I reread the post, I realize TL is saying his draft board, but curious as to other perfect examples from previous drafts..
Pac Man comes to mind. Dez Bryant looked like a solid value pick, that could’ve gone higher if you judge his play until the injury – and I’m not sure he’s a waste since I think he just owes some $ but he’s not like out “thuglifing”.
There must be other players who had questions marks around this issue that either gave a team: a bust, solid pro, or quite a value for where they were picked.
Since we don’t have access to a real team’s board this is all speculation and opinion, of which Det32 assertion that Ayers is a flat out baller and savior at the top of his board and where those traits fit in for his board – is just as valid as those who say he’ll bust or is rising or falling.
Looking at the NFL Networks top draft busts of all time would seem to give us other great examples – from players who went through it (busted)
Ayers has not been drafted yet so it is hard to say who will end up being right in the debate as to where he’ll be picked, and as to what kind of player he will be.
by BillySimsMadeMeDo on Apr 11, 2011 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
No, I am not taking a shot at det32
If I wanted to do that there are tons of opportunities in other threads. No need to make a new one. I generally try to stay out of that fray. I admit, I have gotten frustrated once or twice, and posted in some of those arguments. But it is not something I want to get deeply involved into.
In each of these posts I try to point out some players that illustrate what I am talking about well. I also made a reference to Ernie Sims in the article and I could have very easily pointed to Ayers again there. But I chose not to do that. I did not want this thread to be about Ayers, but about how talent, effort, and instincts are all part of the evaluation of how a player can impact you.
The selection of Ayers as the example was strictly because he is the most prominent example of a player that has had his stock drop because of a perception that he is not motivated. The only reason I kind of called out det32 was in an attempt to keep the discussion away from a debate on Ayers. While some of the posts here have been about Ayers, the debate on him has centered around his talent vs motivation so I have not tried to stop it.
Fair enough - also know you do that (stay out of fray)
I was interested to learn of other examples that wouldn’t seem to inflame those fires as you acknowledged might happen when you did use Ayers.
In rereading, I do see that you say this hurts him on your draft board in your evaluation process , which isn’t saying it is hurting him on every draft board.
My point is that with the draft still weeks away, and none of us intimately affiliated with the teams beyond being fans- that there’s still no way to discern exactly if Ayers has fallen or risen on any one teams chart….and it only takes one team to love a player.
Since he is not a boom or a bust pick yet, examples like Sims who didn’t live up to draft expectations seem more apt to the point of what it means when Talent, Effort, and Instincts meet draft value as well as proof as to whether a player actually has “risen” or “fallen”.
In fact, if I were really good at this – arguing thing – I could point to players who seemed to lack those traits in college yet got it together as pros and vice versa.
Where did you have those players on your charts? Maybe Randy Moss?
You cite Ayers as the best example, but do you have others for this draft?
by BillySimsMadeMeDo on Apr 11, 2011 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Sounds like a reasonable request to me
There is one player that has taken a hit as big as Akeem Ayers in my evaluations. That is Johnathan Baldwin (WR). I consider Baldwin another prime example of a guy that has first round talent but probably will drop into the second round, or maybe even later, because he does not work hard enough to learn the game and play at a high level. Baldwin took a big hit (-10 spots) which is equal to how I graded down Ayers.
Nick Fairley would take a small hit (-2 spots) from inconsistent effort. But I am not putting DTs on my Lions draft board so it has little impact in that respect.
Another player that has been graded down on inconsistent effort is Marvin Austin (-3 spots) but once again I am not putting DTs on my Lions draft board.
I have also dropped DaQuan Bowers (-2 spots) for inconsistent effort and (-3 spots) for injury concerns. Because of this Robert Quinn has passed Bowers on my board as the top DE prospect. This has also dropped Bowers below my trade down point. So I would prefer to trade down than taking Bowers at #13.
I wondered about Baldwin
as he could be steal if he gets his act together and turns into a great pro, or he could be a …
From previous drafts do you have some “successes” from guys where these traits proved your evaluation correctly (and incorrectly)?
Because this draft has yet to happen, it’s still hard to say anyone really has dropped
or will become a bust.
btw, i do think you always offer thoughtful input and analysis so I’m really just asking these questions as though we were actually having the conversation.
So ….How far did Quinn’s suspension drop him on your board? Not just from a play standpoint but for the fact he got caught up in something that looks like he would have been better served to avoid.
by BillySimsMadeMeDo on Apr 12, 2011 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I consider the issues with Quinn to be character concerns
I have an upcoming article in this series that focuses on character and I will be talking about the North Carolina situation there. It will be published in the next day to two.
i dint take the OP like that.. M 10 on the other hand
i aprecate the back up though
RIP CURTIS CHAIVRE
Good stuff TuffLynx
Evaluating player value is by far the most complex part of the process and I commend your efforts to simplify the process and bring things to light so that we all can better understand the viewpoints of many others.
For me it is a tough call but push come to shove I rank Effort > Instincts > Talent. But that is not to say that a large margin separate a given player. What makes it so hard to come to a consensus on a player is the fact that each person is making subjective judgments that are not quantifiable. Some teams, like the Raiders have even tried to take the subjectivity out of the mix, by always selecting the biggest, fastest, and strongest players. And we have all seen how that can work out. In the 70’s it was dominant, in the 80’s it became less effective, and by the 90’s and 00’s it has become a running joke amongst the league.
I believe the reason this is such, is because of those wrinkles you speak of and just how much the game has evolved since the 70’s. Back when the game was more simple everyone on the field knew with a relative certainty what their responsibility was on any given play. Where in today’s game, with the advent of the zone blitz specifically, and to a lesser degree offensive schemes like west coast and air Coryell, it has become less identifiable presnap exactly what your assignments are on a given play.
This is the reason why teams like New England have emerged to the fore front with a different type of team philosophy. New England is all about guys that love to play football and are smart. That is the main two things they focus on when drafting a player, talent comes third. I would equate that to effort and instincts. That also allows New England to draft players lower in the draft and get more out of them for what they pay in a given contract. Which will keep the roster salary of the first year contract players way down and allow them more cash to supplement their rookie draft class with a veteran free agent or two, whom is much more of a known quantity since they have a body of work in the NFL. What is really impressive about all of this is the fact that the players that the Patriots draft tend to all be the high effort, student of the game, type of players to some degree. So this breads that as a culture into their organization. So when they do decide to take a chance on a player that has shown more talent than effort in the past, even a washed out veteran the likes of a Randy Moss, they tend to get more mileage out of them than any other team would by virtue of peer pressure alone.
So I would say that New England is the perfect example of mind over matter, or in your terms effort and instincts over talent. And the Raiders as the perfect antithesis to support that theory.
Now what you have to understand to try and predict what is a good fit for the Lions is two things. 1) Just what is their draft philosophy? And 2) What exactly is the current culture of the team and how would taking a given player impact the team in a given way?
To answer question one is easy. Much like the Patriots, after all Schwartz has Belichick pedigree, the Lions look for players that love the game and are smart. You seen evidence of this with the comment of Martin Mayhew during the senior bowl year before last. When the NFL playoffs were on in the break room and several players showed little to no interest in what was going on as others huddled around the TV to watch the games. Mayhew clearly stated then that the Lions would remove players completely off their draft board based off of something like that. However the Lions have taken it a step further than what the Patriots do, we also seek to marry that football loving player with players that are bigger and stronger than others in their positional groups.
The second question though is a lot more complex and gets a lot more into team chemistry and team dynamics along with the financial side of things. I pointed this out in the previous article in the series when I explained why KVB could be replaced easily in this years draft based on talent and individual play alone, but likely will not be.
Ndamukong Suh - Bringing 50's football back to Motown!
only thing with that is that's the same type of guys Marinelli wanted
loved football, stayed in the gym, etc…
What’s definitely been different to me for the Lions now, is the coordinators, and headcoach seem to be on the same page and plan, whereas during millen years it was like a hodgepodge of different philosophies.
by BillySimsMadeMeDo on Apr 12, 2011 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Well also, the Marinelli guys were dwarfs where the Schwartz guys tend to be Giants
Ndamukong Suh - Bringing 50's football back to Motown!
Oh I should also add that while Marinelli liked effort guys I don't think he factored much into their instincts or smarts
This is why we had busts on guys like Ernie Sims
Ndamukong Suh - Bringing 50's football back to Motown!
I just meant they were described the same way
but it looks like Mayhew and Schwartz are making better choices
and are on same page with coordinators and scheme
which can’t be said of Marinelli
by BillySimsMadeMeDo on Apr 15, 2011 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions

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