Lockout Insanity
by Matthew Malek on May 10, 2011 12:49 PM EDT
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PrintA very wise friend of mine who founded a successful hedge fund and was one of the first people in the world to warn Geitner of the impending economic crisis(his fund does mainly mortgage backed securities), told me a story about the days before he was his own boss.
He was by far the top earner at this firm. He didn't feel he was being compensated fairly. He threatened to walk. The owner freaked out and said......I will give you 80% of what you bring in and then it hit my friend. He could take this guy to the cleaners. So he told the owner no and started his own business. Why? because if you make a deal with a partner while they are under stress and you get too good of a deal it will always....end badly.
My friend makes a bit less now as his own boss than he would have at the larger firm paying him 80% but he is much happier and in a situation where he and his partners work together without worry. It seems like the last deal the NFLPA made was bound to make the owners unhappy and now the players don't just want things to stay the same they want more.
A few thoughts.
1. Who could have a problem with restructuring the rookie pay scale? Think of the money our franchise lost to Harrington, WR's galore, Ernie Sims and never got anything in return for it.
2. The players aren't partners in the strictest sense. They don't help pay for stadiums and maintenance of facilities and........THEY DON'T SHARE THEIR ENDORSEMENT DEALS!!!!!! No one wants to talk about this. If the players were partners they would be pooling their money from endorsements into the pot to be shared. But they are not. And that helps the richer players.
3. Clearly the owners need to help retired players in general but especially those with health problems. Also, they need to reward players that produce. Think Arian Foster. Maybe they could take money from the years 3 biggest busts and transfer it the overachievers.
Of coarse there is much much more to be said. I just wanted to throw things our here to start a discussion and hit on a few points that don't often get talked about or addressed. I am particularly interested in hearing what people have to say about endorsement money.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Pride of Detroit or its writers. FanPosts are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable fans.
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I know it's not your point, but...
We got a few years out of Ernie Sims and ended up trading him for T. Scheffler. I don’t consider him a bust. Maybe just not as awesome as we all hoped. He was picked for the Tampa 2 so he didn’t really fit Schwartz’s system, so they traded him. It’s not like he was a Mike Williams…
Fair enough...
but we didn’t get our money’s worth. He was clearly over paid.
Malek
by Matthew Malek on May 10, 2011 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed.
But I liked him when he was in Detroit. (Not much to cheer about on the Defense when he was here besides Dre Bly and a few others)
Though, sometimes I sure do wish my wife would “overcommit” like Ernie used to (Wink, wink, nudge, nudge, Aye? Aye? Know-what-I-mean? Know-what-I-mean? Say-no-more. Say-no-more. lol)
I also might like Ernie (and I understand this is a stupid reason to like a guy) just because he was always an answer to the “Does detroit ONLY draft WRs in the first round?” crap which was always followed by the condescending laughter that I’m sure we all had to deal with around that time.
Possible UndaDawg quote from that time:
“No dammit! We took a linebacker in 2006, ya jerk! Try paying attention! I don’t want to hear another word about it! Now, if you need me, I’ll be in the corner. Crying. Bartender, keep ’em coming!”
I have a friend who is a brain surgeon and a rocket scientist
Now that I got that out of the way:
1- Even the players are into a rookie cap. the on.ly one not into it are the rookies.
2- Yeah, the players should share endorsements like the owners share the naming rights of the stadium and all the hats they sell.
3- Maybe we should pay for performance. A yard is worth $5k and a TD is worth a million. That might ruin the team aspect of the game, but we will make sure the players who perform get their $$.
Million dollar pancakes!
It's turkey, Lions and Macy's. Any other combination is just ludicrous.
"Only a real man quotes himself in the 3rd person" - Nate D. circa 2011
Screw offensive linemen
if they don’t score TDs, then no money for them. No points on the board, no cash.
The point is that if you move to some sort of “take money from underperforming guys to give to the overperforiming guys” system, you will create some weird situations where people are more concerned with their stats than they are with winning games. Imagine if we paid Suh $1 million a sack. He would want to go make some money by sacking the hell out of anyone he saw. He might go for the QB more than play the run (but lets assume he has some run-stopping bonuses as well). But what if the opposing teams start to double or triple team him to slow him down. This means guys like Avril and KVB are going to get more sacks while Suh will get less. So is Suh happy he is changing the game and helping his fellow players get $1 million each while he pulls double teams? Would you?
Players negotiate contracts with the teams and get paid based on those. If the player outplays his contract or underperforms, there are ways to solve it (new contract or cut from team). No need to reinvent the wheel.
Clearly...
the money can’t come from under performing guys. I was worried you might think I was serious. I should have made it clear I was joking. Unless its Jamarcus Russel. We should take his money and give it to the poor.
Malek
by Matthew Malek on May 10, 2011 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Jerk
If I told you the story came from a bumb who has never made a dollar you would have said the story was made by a poor guy who had never had the chance to take someone to the cleaners. You missed the point completely. No attempt to talk about my friends. I didn’t name names. Gave pertinent info to give context and make the point.
1. You are correct.
2. You don’t understand arguments do you? Was I suggesting that they should? Nope. I was making the point that they are NOT partners in the strict sense. In my business I can’t make money off my partners work on the side. Do you need an example to make this more clear?
3. You don’t think there should be bonuses for guys that carry their teams but weren’t drafted in the first few rounds?
Thanks for the constructive criticism.
Malek
by Matthew Malek on May 10, 2011 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
OK
so the moral of your story is that the owners made a bad deal out of fear. To take your friends advice, the players should not have taken the sweet deal offered last time and instead should have quit and started their own league for less money. What if the owners had been able to keep their $4 billion in TV money and starve out the players? Then the players have to make a deal out of fear. Should the owners walk away and get new players? Or is the moral that since someone is going to be butthurt after the negotiations, that we are doomed to relive this lockout/strike in another 10-20 years?
I’m just trying to tie your story (a good story no doubt) to the NFL issue.
1. even a broken clock is right twice a day
2. Players help pay for the stadiums. They cut $1 billion off the top of all revenues to pay for stadiums and such.
3. I think there should be bonuses built into their contracts. In fact, there are. I don’t see the need to futz with it especially in light of #1. A rookie cap will make those issues moot.
Now....
we are getting somewhere. Neither side should make a deal out of fear or pressure. It should be win win if it is a partnership. While it is much more complicated than I am allowing for in this little anecdote at the end of the day this problem we have now was cooked in the books with the last deal. Maybe the owners were to blame for taking it. Or just stupid. Who knows. But this was unavoidable because the last deal wasn’t a good one for the owners and most people can see that.
This all begs the question of the STATUS of the players. Are they partners truly? I don’t think so. But I don’t have all the details of the internal agreements and discussions.
1. you are right more than a broken clock by one or two times a day. ha
2. That is the proposal not the current deal as I understand it. If the Owners get the BIL off the top than I think splitting 50/50 is fair. Currently that is NOT the deal. As I understand it this is basically the offer the owners put up.
3. Agreed that a rookie cap will. But a guy like Arian Foster who is in the probowl and a HORSE who may have a short career at a position of volatility is NOT being fairly compensated. That needs to change somehow. I don’t have the answer. I could figure it out…but I would need to be paid to work for the NFL. ha.
Malek
by Matthew Malek on May 10, 2011 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
For rookies
Is there any way they could institute uncapped contingent performance incentives, as a way to compensate those rookies who perform well (e.g., Foster)?
I would suggest...
That every team has a portion of their salary cap set aside for mandatory performance incentives. At the end of the season the money will be distributed based on the contributions of players on the team. A specific formula would be used to divvy up the money. The fact that they are a rookie does not keep them from getting a cut. Just perform and you will see the money.
UFC does it successfully.
Fight of the Night, knockout of the night, etc. It’d be nice to see the League itself make some nice standardized incentives like that. It’d be easy enough to do and would be a nice bonus that’s not actually negotiated into any contract.
It's turkey, Lions and Macy's. Any other combination is just ludicrous.
"Only a real man quotes himself in the 3rd person" - Nate D. circa 2011
Fear and pressure is now negotiation works.
In a perfect world with lots of unicorns and rainbows we might be able to make deals where everybody is happy all the time. But we live in this dirty, nasty, smelly world where progress is more often made because of fear or pressure than any other reasons. It may not be nice, but it is what it is.
1) The rookies will get some kind of a pay scale, but you are missing one big issue. The rookie players are not the only ones that are unhappy with it. The agents are also very unhappy and they are pulling every string they can within the players union to make them fight the rookie wage scale. There has been at least a little success by the agents because the NFLPA was resisting the rookie wage scale in the mediated negotiations. But then again, the NFLPA was resisting pretty much everything so that is not surprising.
2) I agree that the players are spoiled little bitches. They would not have their fame if it were not for the big stage that the NFL and the owners have built for them. They sure as hell wouldn’t be able to afford to build a stadium like the new Cowboys Stadium. But they don’t think about any of the investment that the owners have to make and any of the risk they take. It is all about them getting their sports cars and mansions with babes on their arms. They are lost in fantasyland and they need to be smacked fucking senseless to bring them back to reality.
3a) The players should get bonuses for things they do as a team, like wins, shutouts, etc. Give good bonuses for team production and modest ones for individual achievements. It might be nice to also be able to dock the player bonuses for bad mistakes.
3b) As for injuries, the players already have a mechanism in place to keep the owners honest. It is called litigation. Workplace injuries will almost always cause the employer to lose in court. The NFLPA should be providing legal services to their past and present members in order to prosecute these cases and hold the NFL accountable for having too many injuries. You need to realize that the major incentive for the owners and league to keep the game clean will be the threat of losing a big workplace injury lawsuit.
Absolutely....
agree with everything above.
Malek
by Matthew Malek on May 11, 2011 4:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Fear and pressure is now negotiation works.
your dates must be so much fun. Jk
1. I agree that I left out the agents. They would stand to lose a ton.
2. The flip side is the owners would have trouble paying for cowboys stadium with the occasional monster truck rally. I buy the owners taking risks in the NHL or Baseball, but when was the last NFL team that went belly up? The NFL prints money. That and they still (mostly) stick the taxpayer with the bill for their stadium. The NFL is like 2 symbiotic organisms—one can’t survive without the other. Without the owners you have a 6’5" Walmart greeter and without the players you have the UFL. I am scared of both options.
3a. I like the idea of team bonuses. I wish more teams had that kind of thing built into contracts.
3b. When was the last time an NFL player sued for a workplace injury? Can they? I think they would have to prove the owners knew about a dangerous situation and did nothing to fix it. So… isn’t getting tackled dangerous? We all know it, so the owners should.. move to two hand touch? NFFL- National flag Football League? Honestly I have no idea how the NFL handles injuries. I hope there is something in there for guys who blow out their knee as a rookie and can’t walk right the rest of their lives.
The players can defintely sue...
over workplace injuries and compensation for them. There are various arrangements and lawsuits in progress pretty much all the time over this…
http://www.dolphinsgab.com/2011/05/10/former-fins-wr-newson-wins-a-suit-against-the-team/
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/commentary/news/story?id=5865792
http://www.stlouisinjurylawyerblog.com/2011/02/professional-football-player-w.html
I would like to make it clear that the litigation options for the players are not always against the teams or the league. Because of legal abilities to subpoena team records concerning an injury, and ongoing medical records after the fact, it is relatively easy to meet the burden of proof that a specific injury is a result of playing in the league. Very few professions have a more clear report of injuries than athletes do. Personal injury lawyers are very good with that sort of thing and most of these cases would be a slam dunk for them.
The problem for the players revolves around agreements made by the NFL and the NFLPA concerning player disability payments from the league. In the previous CBA, the players had given away the right to litigate for damages in lieu of getting a disability check. But now that the CBA is no longer in force, any future injuries may not have such a contract in place. This may actually be a more dangerous problem for the future solvency of NFL than the player salaries.
Part of what I am trying to point out is that the NFL is much more proactive in providing for players with disabilities from football injuries than the players would like you to believe. The NFL has recognized for some time that they need to protect their players to the best of their abilities.
Question:
I thought Foster was a 2nd year player in 2010.
Is he considered a rookie because he spent much of 2009 on the practice squad?
If a player is dressed for six games...
then they are credited with a season in the NFL. Well, that is exactly what Arian Foster got in 2009, so he was considered a second year player during 2010 and was not eligible for OROY honors. He also cannot be put back on the practice squad, but I doubt he has to worry about that anyway. He got screwed out of an award, but he gained a year toward his pension obligation and very little wear and tear during that year. He is also a year closer to being able to become an unrestricted free agent. So in the long run what he gained was better than what he lost.
Thanks for the clarification, Tuff!
I like smart people like you.
I also love the story of AF! Went from barely making the team to the one of leagues top RB’s. That’s just an awesome UndaDawg story (see what i did there? lol)
I actually DO know a rocket scientist.
Kinda.
by Mavyrk on May 10, 2011 11:53 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I am a rocket scientist
If all you count are those little ones you can get at the hobby shop, or maybe the popsicles that look like rockets.
The rookie pay scale must be instituted in my mind
We can’t keep paying these hit and miss prospects that much money without showing they can produce.
RIP Robyn Bailey 1961 - 2010. I love you mum.
The other side of the rookie cap
is that rookies who do well will wait for their second contract to get a pay day. So say you have a rookie (like foster) who blows up in the first year.
Option 1- The team sits down and resigns him to a bigger contract to show that since he has performed he should get the money. Hmm, what happens if he turns out to be Orlandis Gary or one of those Denver backs who left in FA only to suck? You are right back to where you started.
Option 2- The team keeps him around and has him play out the rookie contract for peanuts. He gets pissed and either holds out or leaves as soon as possible in FA.
What makes this tricky is that positions have different shelf lives. A RB plays for fewer years than an offensive lineman or a QB. Do we ask a RB like Kevin Smith to play (and get injured) his first two (and possibly only) years under a rookie contract? I hope that $300k you got for 2 years as a third rounder buys a lot of crutches, KSmooth.
I don’t really have a solution here. Mostly because I am not a contract negotiator in the NFL. I do think that there needs to be some sort of rookie cap, but I think there are rookie caps that are fair and unfair.
Oh, heres an option 3
Option 3- The rookie plays out their contract as a decent player. Role player/starter but not a star/etc. after his 4 year rookie contract is up, the team dumps him for another rookie who is cheaper. The FA market tanks because rookies will be cheaper than these guys so teams will often take a flyer on them over a proven FA who might not have a lot left in the tank after 5 years. The fans get worse football and the players get less money over time.
I think a rookie cap should be tied to an increase in the 55 man team limit. So we can have more guys to cover injuries and get some development over time.
Option 4
All rookies make league minimum, but have very large performance bonuses built in. So, a player like Suh comes in the league and gets a base pay of league minimum, but after his stellar year obviously reaching all possible incentives, he ends up making what Suh actually did. However, a player like JaMarcus comes in, makes league minimum. Unfortunately for him, he would not have reached too many of the performance requirements and would end up making not much more than league minimum.
Personally, I don’t think it’s right to factor in injuries and health care into their salaries. While they are on the rosters, aren’t the teams responsible for providing care for the injuries? If a player is injured, I didn’t think the team could just drop them without providing the care the player requires. If it is career ending, isn’t this where the retired player health care issue takes over? I would absolutely be shocked and would eat my hat if a player ever sees a single bill from a doctor. If this really is the case, I really don’t see how we can factor injuries and health care into pay. I might be wrong, but it sounds unrealistic to me that when a player gets hurt that the teams would not be responsible for providing care for “in the line of duty” injuries.
It's turkey, Lions and Macy's. Any other combination is just ludicrous.
"Only a real man quotes himself in the 3rd person" - Nate D. circa 2011
I don't even think it is just a rookie scale that needs to come in
IMO the ideal is always a compromise between the two extremes. Having a communistic approach and paying every player the same amount will only remove the incentive to be the best, and therefore the overall quality of the game would suffer. A complete free market approach only breeds greed and corruption and sooner or later the financial structure collapses in on itself.
No a middle ground is definitely what is needed. I like to work with percentages, IMO it is the fairest way to divide anything. That way, as the overall growth of the league continues everyone benefits. This means that every player, owner, and officer person has a vested interest in seeing the entire league thrive, not just their own team.
First off lets start with what is fair. 50/50, yes right down the middle. Half for owners, half for players. Now of that 50% there should be 10% from each side set aside. The players 10% will be divided 5% for retirement and medical benefits for former players and 5% for league wide performance incentives. This means that players will get paid a bonus for league awards such as making the pro bowl or being named rookie of the year. By doing this players will always have the incentive to be the best at what they do, even with a rigid salary structure. The owners would set aside 10% to help offset stadium renovations, upgrades, and relocations.
Now lets talk about those numbers for a second. The estimated revenue of the NFL is around 9.5 billion. so 10% of that is 950 million. 5% would be 425 million. I am fairly sure that the retired NFL players could have a livable retirement with decent medical off that. I am also sure that 425 million is plenty of money to offer incentives for making the pro bowl, being named an alternate, being rookie of the year, along with various team incentives for winning different rounds of the playoffs. The 950 million would be enough to build one entire new stadium every year if that was needed, it is not. even adding one every other year would be plenty good enough. The point is, that 10% is plenty enough to offset operating costs for the owners.
So that leaves the owners with 40% and the players with 40%. 3.8 billion per side. That should be plenty I would hope. 118.75 million per NFL team is actually what it works out to be. Not that far off of what last years projected salary cap would have been, 128 million.
Now lets talk player salary caps. Each player should be limited to 5% max base salary and 5% incentive bonus per contract year of the salary cap. So instead of negotiating hard numbers with players, you will now negotiate percentages. The top players on your team can earn 11.875 million in this next year. But don’t forget there was still 425 million in league wide incentives to be had as well. Rather than come up with a whole incentive tree lets just say that for each 55 man roster (2 added for injury concern) you could award 1 million per player 7 times over and still have money left to spare. So it would not be unheard of, with league wide incentives for a player to earn say 14 million next year.
As for rookies, well there is 7 rounds, so…..
1st round cap 5% = 5.9375 million
2nd round cap 3% = 3.5625 million
3rd round cap 1% = 1.1875 million
4th round cap 1% = 1.1875 million
5th round cap .5% = .59375 million
6th round cap .5% = .59375 million
7th round cap .25% = .296875 million
Same structure as vets, 50% base, 50% incentive based per year.
This kind of system would work well, because as the league does better, then so do the players and owners. It also would be easier for team presidents and general managers to be fiscally responsible. In small markets like Green Bay and Buffalo, they would be able to know as a percentage of salary cap, where to set their own internal budgets.
Also this would generally allow the larger market teams to be able to afford more high priced veteran free agents. So markets that generate more cash flow, could indeed field better players. the difference would not be great, maybe one to four top tier players per team, depending on age of the team and where the salary structure was in contract progression. But it would not make those teams so powerful that they would be immune to the injury bug, or superior coaching.
Well anyways that is my thoughts on it. Seems pretty cut and dried and easy to me. But then, most things are a hell of a lot simpler than lawyers make them.
Ndamukong Suh - Bringing 50's football back to Motown!
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