How to improve our rush offense
by msivits on Sep 28, 2011 6:07 PM EDT
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Don't worry about it.
I never valued running backs too much. It’s all about the guys protecting them. But if nothing’s working, might as well try anything.
We have our man. It's Stafford. It's Suh. It's Calvin. It's Delmas. What we need is Man Number Two to stand up.
by halfbackattack33 on Sep 28, 2011 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions
if best hits a couple 40 yard
home runs in the next couple weeks I think this won’t matter. Its a small sample size. If we take best off the field our screen game takes a hit as well as our check down game. Best may bot be a top 10 rusher in the league but his value to this offense is a lot like the value of McCoy in Philly in my opinion.
I have a 9" personality
by Waitingfortheroar on Sep 28, 2011 6:26 PM EDT reply actions
We had mostly bad playcalling last week
Some more screens and runs to the outside for best will give us a decent run game
Go check out the Datsyukian Deke , Detroit Red Wings Blog
http://datsyukiandeke.wordpress.com/
All thoughs screens will be there later in games
Teams are getting used to knowing Best will get the ball from a draw out of the shot gun formation…
I don’t watch enough Philly games but he has to take the ball from some different formations than Best does…
Again look at his 2.9 yard per carry, I’m not a big fan of stats. But rather the eye ball test, were just not moving the ball well on the ground right now… I know I will take some heat on that comment but it’s the truth…
we absolutlely
Arent. But, the more we feed TEs in the seams and hit over the top routes we hit the more screens and draws will hit for big plays.
I have a 9" personality
by Waitingfortheroar on Sep 28, 2011 8:49 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yep...
We took only 1 shot deep in the first half.. I think Schawtz realized that it was silly to not… so, I would assume we pepper in deep balls though out the game, for the rest of season.
All men are created equal. Its just that some men are more equal than others....
by CapitolLions on Sep 29, 2011 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
i dont know that any other back would have been much better
With that handoff out of shotgun. It is not my favorite play but
Then again having him there helped free grew, who helped free Titus who helped free cj…or you know having to account for all those guys
by BillySimsMadeMeDo on Sep 28, 2011 7:47 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
thats
My view on it also. If they have to account for Best every play, its essentially already accomplishing what a quallity running game does.
I have a 9" personality
by Waitingfortheroar on Sep 28, 2011 8:51 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I think Williams would get more yards in those situation because he is more of a power back
and instead of getting -1 yard or 0 yards you would get 3 or 4 yards…. and that may not be breath taking but it is a better down and distance ratio that getting nothing… just my opinion…
Plus if you look at K. Williams … Mike Shannhan always goes thru alot of runners.. when many thought K. Williams would end up as their main guy… and to be honest he could have been. It was just that he could not carry mcnabb… then again neither would best.
but if it's the shot gun formation with that delay or immediate handoff
do you think the d respects Williams the same as a receiver?
I could see if we are in some power run formation, although I’d still like to see Best prove himself to be an everydown back
by BillySimsMadeMeDo on Sep 29, 2011 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
To me we need to use them based on their displayed skill set...it is a dream to just believe someone just turns into a good runner
even with some offensive line issues you have to want your runners to make some plays on their own. This isn’t a NEW pattern.. i remember a game like this vs Buffalo when best has 20 yards on 14 carriers and sometimes runners have that. But where is the balance?
All i am saying is i look at Best as a Matt Forte type… good in the passing game and good situationally but not a guy you expect to feed the rock too. In my humble opinion K williams would give us the best chance to have a decent running attack as the guy who we use on running downs and Best as that 3rd down type back… with Harrision and Mo Mo spelling…. just my humble opinion that would help with SOME of the issue.
I know it is college, but did you see Best at Cal?
he was carrying the rock not just catching it. Having him in just on third downs
seems kind of like leaving your best frozen beer mug in the freezer so you can drink
beer from the can…
by BillySimsMadeMeDo on Sep 29, 2011 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
This may run counter to intuition
but my take is that we should not start the game trying to establish the run. Let Stafford get in throws on first and 10 to begin. Let him build a rhythm. It won’t take long. Once he does, then throw in different running plays to throw the D even more off balance.
As long as we're not down 20.
I’m all for running the ball, even if they are for little to no gains.
"You've got to respect your opponent, no matter who it is. You respect him best by going out there and beating him up." - Calvin Johnson
Jim, I was thinking the exact same thing during the Minnesota game.
Use the pass to set up the run. It would seem to play to our strength.
Did you guys see the size of that chicken?
what about some new 2 TE and 3 TE sets that help establish the run
I mean thats what they are there for as well and Detroit is suppose to have 3 w/ 2 capable of blocking in Grew and Heller. Id actually like to see a little more motions and utilizing the full teams depth to help make anything happen in the run game. A lil more helping between the tackle and guard or center and guard .. got to get creative I think but I also still believe this is all part of scheme (Linehans) as well and why there is such a low expectation in terms of its use. His history shows the best runner he had was S. Jackson in St Louis and then you have players like Best and Culpepper who are in the top 5 rushers under his system.
At same time I think the answer is also already here on the team. Best should not be considered the every down back they want him to be. Situational at best (no puns intended) and I think to get those big gains we saw in him at first as a rookie they need less of him on the field trying to pound the ball. Wear down the defense a bit before punching them back in the throat w/ Best speed. Harrison, Williams and Morris need to step it up completely. 2-3 yds isnt much and eventually your going to get 5-10 yard gain .. but as someone said some of this is on the RB’s to make happen regardless of how bad the line may be playing. I know we have seen it w/ each back, seems like all they do is run right into the offensive line period, and rarely look for the holes and most times when they do, they somehow trip up a lot or you got tigger action and everyone trying to bounce … Right into a group of defenders …Yikes …
I think sometimes fans miss the point
It’s not always about what the player does but what they can possible do. Best puts us in a situation where he can break a long run, catch a screen or swing pass and turn it into a game changing play or have Stafford fake the hand off to him and create passing mismatches downfield by bringing the Linebackers up.
The Defense has to account for Best when he is on the field, with the other backs they don’t. They can contain those guys with their base sets and not really worry about the big play as much. The flip side of that is if you run in someone else to run the ball, the defense will key on that guy. Best just needs to get his reps and make the most of them until his true average catches up. He will break a few long runs to average out with his shorter ones. Hell, he might get a few long ones this week with the depleted Cowboys secondary having a true passing team for the first time. If this was week 8 I would say we should worry, but for right now I’m cool with Best being an every down back.
OK, I am going to say this again, because some folks don't get it.
Just because the ball is delivered to the quarterback in a shotgun DOES NOT make the play a draw when he hands of the ball. I am so fricking sick of hearing that crap because it is just ignorant about football.
A draw play is characterized by the offensive line using a pass blocking scheme despite the play being a run. It is the exact opposite of a play action pass where the line will run block even though the run is faked and the quarterback passes the ball.
Most of the hand offs to Best DO NOT use pass blocking. They are mainly a variety of counters and traps. Get your head out of your bum and stop calling the run plays a draw just because the snap is delivered in a shotgun. How the ball is snapped has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the type of play you are running.
I never met him, but he was family to me... R.I.P. Tom Kowalski We will all miss you.
Draw play or not
Stafford takes the ball out of the Shotgun waits a hot second then shoves it in Best gut then best takes off in which ever direction he has a crease in. That done what seems to be 7-10 times a game is not smart football rather crossing your fingers hoping Best breaks one to the house…
it looks delayed and has a different momentum
then the typical run up the gut, left or right type play
they could be like body blows softening up for the knockout
it just seems like Ol’ Scotty sticks with it and takes his time setting those up
so that watching them live they seem a little like wasted plays
can’t argue with 3-0 though
by BillySimsMadeMeDo on Sep 29, 2011 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, that is true.
The shotgun plays a role in the perception of a delay because the ball is handed off so deep in the backfield. In that sense I can agree that it is a delayed counter or delayed trap that is being run, and that could be part of the problem. I really would like to see Stafford go back under center for the snap.
I never met him, but he was family to me... R.I.P. Tom Kowalski We will all miss you.
I agree, for a couple of reasons.
Handing off the ball out of the shotgun is a difficult proposition. As I mentioned, your running back is so deep that they take a long time to hit the hole. The benefit of the QB being under center is the running back can gain forward momentum while the quarterback is turning to hand off the ball. It makes the hand off a little more difficult because the running back is moving when they take it, but the running back does not have to wait to get the ball before they start running, so they hit the hole a bit quicker and make the job of run blocking easier because of that.
Maybe the Lions should experiment with the short shotgun that is used in the Pistol offense. That is a decent compromise because the running back can still get a running start and the QB is a couple steps behind the center to start. I think that would be a good compromise between the long shotgun they use now and moving Stafford back under center.
I never met him, but he was family to me... R.I.P. Tom Kowalski We will all miss you.
Oops, I forgot to mention the second thing...
When you hand off the ball so deep it gives the defense more time to recognize a play action fake before the running back hits the line. That split second is often all the defense needs to readjust themselves. By giving the hand off closer to the line, it forces the defense to commit to defend the run more quickly which will make play action more effective in my mind.
I never met him, but he was family to me... R.I.P. Tom Kowalski We will all miss you.
yes
I’ve been waiting to see the Pistol more. They debuted it a bit last year. Maybe they’re holding off on it for certain situations or something, but I’m a fan. hope to see it in Dallas.
The Dis-Assembly Line - The unofficial, official name for the next best D-line in football.
The o line seems to get pushed back at the point of attack.
It’s hard for anyone not named Barry Sanders to overcome this kind of a definciency.
Did you guys see the size of that chicken?
My take and um....I vote myself the winner.
Remember when San Diego had Tomlinson and Sproles. Tomlinson was 1st, 2nd down back that could catch and sproles was 3rd down , pass catching "specialist. Not saying by any stretch Williams is LT, BUT, he is a “running” back, which allows us to truly decieve defense. Best plays off that as reciever or an effective draw play because D thinks he’s there to catch ball. It’s all about fooling the defense and I think right now our running game is too predictable.
Put me down...Lions win at least 11 games next season! 1/6/11
There are a lot of things that can improve our running game
1) Scheme: We could see more power sets with Pettigrew and Heller out there to give our line help. Hell lets go Jumbo, once Cherilus reclaims his starting job, and put Hilliard in as a tight end as well, with Keiland Williams as a full back. Even without being drastic like that, just a simple package with Heller out there helps.
2) Technique: Many of our players are not playing sound fundamentals on the line. Cory Hilliard was downright abused in the Vikings game. he continually played from bad leverage and got pushed back. Pad level, pad level, pad level. Get our your shovels boys!
3) Personnel: Yes we can upgrade, but we likely have to wait for the off season to see any real chance of that. Unless Seattle wants to trade us another all pro caliber lineman, now that I would be all for! Hey on the plus side, we can get Russel Okung in another year or two when they give up on him.
4) Patience: As mentioned before, we improved our run game last year, a lot of that had to do with the health of guys like Peterman. Honestly with Dom looking better, and with Peterman and Sims holding their own, all we really need is for Gosder to pull his head out of his bum and play like the beast we all know he is, and for Backus to get back to 100% form and play up to his standards and we will be fine. Mark my words, the Lions run game will show an improvement after the bye week.
5) Get up to game speed: From Backus, to Maurice Morris, to Keiland Williams and Jerome Harrison. We have a lot of guys that are coming off injury and still getting up to speed, or that are new additions and doing so. See number 4 above.
Ndamukong Suh - Bringing 50's football back to Motown!
by Evilsmurf on Sep 29, 2011 12:21 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
good points for sure!
The Dis-Assembly Line - The unofficial, official name for the next best D-line in football.
Barry Sanders could not run behind this o-line.
by HouseofSpartans on Sep 29, 2011 9:51 AM EDT reply actions
Hold on playa.
Hoooooold on.
Hold the damn phone.
You go to your room, young man. No.
"You've got to respect your opponent, no matter who it is. You respect him best by going out there and beating him up." - Calvin Johnson
by Mavyrk on Sep 29, 2011 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
90s
Barry had a very good O-line in the early 90s before tragedy hit it in Utley and Andolsek. Both were very good, combined with two pro-bowlers in Brown and Glover.
They just were not the massive line that was in Dallas, which got all the publicity (as did the team in general).
What Barry missed all those years was a good QB and headcoach.
Williams will get more carries....
he is still getting comfortable the O and Schwartz doesn’t want to push it to the point where the possibility of a back breaking mistake or miscue could occur. I did like that 3rd and short run he pulled off last week. I’m thinking we can expect to see some more of that.
"They counted on America to be passive...They counted wrong." ~ R. Reagan
I'm all for getting Williams involved
However, we need to get him on the field more in passing situations. Otherwise, the D will be all like, “Yo dogg, there is that Williams kid again. Let’s go tackle him.” “I smell what you’re stepping in valued teammate. I will follow you. Homie.” Those are direct quotes, obviously.
It's turkey, Lions and Macy's. Any other combination is just ludicrous.
"Only a real man quotes himself in the 3rd person" - Nate D. circa 2011
"Ambition is a poor excuse for not having sense enough to be lazy." - Charlie McCarthy
obviously
and concure!
The Dis-Assembly Line - The unofficial, official name for the next best D-line in football.
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