Evaluating The Detroit Lions Roster: Defense
by Sean Yuille on Sep 6, 2011 6:01 AM EDT
in Detroit Lions Analysis
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PrintAfter taking a look at the Detroit Lions offense earlier today, it is now time to move to the other side of the ball and examine the defense. As a whole, the defense underwent quite a few changes during the offseason with new faces being added at linebacker, cornerback and safety. The defensive line remains largely the same, but the back seven is a bit different.
Defensive End: Kyle Vanden Bosch, Cliff Avril, Lawrence Jackson, Willie Young
The only change at this position from 2010 to 2011 is that Turk McBride no longer is on the team after signing with the New Orleans Saints. Part of the reason why the Lions felt they could let McBride go is because Young has really stepped up his game. He has continued to improve and is expected to be a solid rotational player at defensive end along with Jackson, who would be a starter on a number of other teams. He isn't a starter for the Lions because they have Vanden Bosch and Avril, but Jackson can be counted on if either goes down with an injury.
Defensive Tackle: Ndamukong Suh, Corey Williams, Sammie Hill, Nick Fairley, Andre Fluellen
In addition to losing McBride, the other change to the defensive line is the addition of Fairley, who was selected 13th overall in the 2011 NFL Draft. Because of his foot injury, Fairley hasn't gotten a chance to show much on the field for the Lions, and he isn't expected to play against the Buccaneers on Sunday. Once he recovers from the injury, he will join a rotation at defensive tackle that already has some talented players in Hill and Fluellen. Defensive tackle is loaded from top to bottom, and especially at the top with the starting defensive tackles. Suh and Williams make for quite the combination for opposing offensive linemen to go up against.
Linebacker: DeAndre Levy, Stephen Tulloch, Justin Durant, Bobby Carpenter, Isaiah Ekejiuba, Ashlee Palmer, Doug Hogue
The Lions overhauled the linebacker position this offseason by adding Tulloch and Durant when NFL free agency opened. Tulloch is expected to start at middle linebacker. This shifts Levy to the outside, where Durant is expected to start as well. Carpenter is the main backup for the outside linebackers, and he had an outstanding preseason. Palmer is the main backup at middle linebacker, although Levy could switch back inside if Tulloch were to get injured. Ekejiuba is mainly a special teams player, and Hogue, a 2011 draft pick, is more of a developmental player. Like Young last year on the defensive line, I expect Hogue to spend 2011 developing and be more ready to contribute next year.
Cornerback: Chris Houston, Eric Wright, Alphonso Smith, Aaron Berry, Brandon McDonald
Houston is back as a starter for the Lions after re-signing this offseason. The other starter at cornerback is Wright, who was added as a free agent. Berry is one of the main backups, as is McDonald, who should see time as the nickel back. Smith will be a contributor as well, but probably not for another week or two since Monday was the first day he practiced since breaking his foot earlier in the summer.
Safety: Louis Delmas, Amari Spievey, Erik Coleman, John Wendling
Delmas and Spievey are expected to be the starters. Delmas, now entering his third year, is someone who could have a breakout season in 2011. Spievey could also have a breakout season in what is his first year as a full-time safety. He has developed quite well and has shown a lot of potential. Coleman was brought in as a free agent before the lockout to compete with Spievey for a starting spot, and Spievey has clearly won the competition. This means Coleman will be the main backup at safety since Wendling is mainly a special teams player.
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while I agree w/ the "why 7"? I was more thinking why Eke?
especially if during the game they only rotate 5 LB’s w/ Carp and Palmer as the main rotational keeping guys fresh. Eke wont see the field anymore than Hogue as Levy or Tulloch will always be on the field regardless. The spot could definitely went somewhere else just off of that alone.
After really sitting back trying to be objective to the D-Line and then thinking about what Turk brought to the table Im starting to think that the key will definitely be getting Fairley back. Young looked good during preseason and you can tell he’s come along but I’d say he’s still a year away from Turk production. He’s still a little undersized (imo) and could use another year of development and hopefully this line stays healthy so he doesnt have to fill in as much yet. I think he could be the weakest link on the Line. We will see a lot more of Suh or Fairley on outside if one of the 3 (lojack, kvb, avril) go down as not to slow the pace of the defense. Flu could definitely fill in for rotational but he’s not starter material quite yet. The great thing for Detroit is they are stacked in at the Tackle position w/ flexible players and some packages that will take advantage of that.
Though the LB’s have been improved i see them getting better as the season goes on. They’ve only been together for just over 6wks. Its definitely going to take time for the unit to gel. Other than that the secondary is still suspect though Houston and Wright are upgrades theres a lot of pressure on that line to relieve them of some of that pressure they will face and help w/ their weakness. I still think a move could be made to strengthen both the safety position depth and the depth at CB maybe. Not that there’s much better out there but after all the touting of Berry he looked less than stellar during preseason to be challenging anyone for a starting spot soon.
A coward dies a thousands Deaths a soldier dies once ....
Eke is special teams terror
Wasn’t that him who caused that fumble on first kickoff of the preseason
Matthew Stafford, Quarterback: a man barely alive, Gentlemen we can rebuild him, We have the technology, We have the capability to make the worlds first bionic QB, Matthew Stafford will be that man, Better than he was before
Better, Stronger, Faster
by Gyorick on Sep 6, 2011 8:49 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
yes
his value isn’t just ST tackles, it’s forcing fumbles. Both him and Palmer have a knack for FFs and that can totally change the momentum of a game (like in Cincy).
The Dis-Assembly Line - The unofficial, official name for the next best D-line in football.
I think they'll have Hogue get settled into an OLB position
and have him learn that the whole year (while contributing on ST as well). Hogue flashed a lot of that athleticism that the scouts saw in him (thus his 5th round pick). He’s just not dependable yet, and probably hesitant in his reads. With proper coaching and time learning behind the likes of Levy and Tulloch – I think he’ll be a nice role player by next year.
The Dis-Assembly Line - The unofficial, official name for the next best D-line in football.
I don't think Hogue sees much game time unless we lose at least one LB to injury.
He really is just in learning mode right now. I am looking forward to him challenging for a starting job in a couple of years.
"Filling a need doesn’t necessarily mean you’re getting a good player," said Schwartz. "It doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re getting a player that best fits; it doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re getting a player that’s better than what you have already."
the lions don’t use a fullback. That’s the entire point of them cutting felton. If they do want to use one, they’ll go with heller. Just because hogue has run with the football previously in his career doesn’t cut him out to be a fullback. The only reason to specify fullback over halfback is for the blocking, something hogue hasn’t done, so it would be just as reasonable to throw any other guy in there as fullback rather than him.
MASN Announcer: "Ususally they have what they call here 'the privilege,' and that's what bobby cox calls it when he let's the veteran guys swing away on 3-0. This is not such a hitter."
Jason Heyward: Single up the middle, ballgame.
Young may be the weak link in the D-line
but I see him as the back-up/rotation for Avril. He provides much of the same skill set as Avril, and they are together a big factor for our D-Line because we want them to get penetration around the corner to force the opposing QB to step up in the pocket where hopefully our DTs are collapsing it from the inside; a QB’s worst nightmare.
he could be...
I’m currently at Syracuse and watched Hogue while he was here. Hogue was able to pick up the LB position very quickly and stand out (…given the line he was behind was mediocre at best).
With another year of just concentrating at the LB position I think Hogue could be a quality NFL backup/spot starter. Particularly behind our DL.
They need lots of LBs to rotate in because of their 3-4 D.
I have no explanation for the 5 TEs though. The ways of Ted Thompson can be mystifying at times.
No slogans. Just win!!!
Does any other team have more than 8?
I’m not really worried about it, I just think it’s funny that people look at the numbers and freak out.
NO HOMO!!!!!!!
Explanation for the 5 TEs
They’ve got two primarily receiving tight ends, a mostly blocking tight end, a tight end that’s an ST ace, and a rookie they didn’t want to lose.
yeah
that’s kinda dumb IMO
The Dis-Assembly Line - The unofficial, official name for the next best D-line in football.
This defence will be [IMO] ranked around eighth to fourteenth in the NFL.
I think I am being conservative here based on the number of new pieces and question marks.
D Line – big, fast, talented, and very, very deep. Still improving.
Linebackers – much improved over last year [remember Landon Johnson, Vinnie Circiu, Spencer Havner, and Ashlee Palmer at MLB?], but they have not shown a lot in the preseason. I see this unit getting better as the year goes on and the best players get the most snaps.
Secondary – still some big questions here. I like the duo of Wright and Houston at CB, but Berry did not look very good in the preseason and we did not see Alphonso at all. The Safeties are improved with Coleman, and Spievey looks much better than last year, but Delmas was a complete non factor in the preseason. I know he was hurting last year, but he looks to be still off his game.This is a much better group than started the season last year, but not anywhere near where it should be.
"Filling a need doesn’t necessarily mean you’re getting a good player," said Schwartz. "It doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re getting a player that best fits; it doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re getting a player that’s better than what you have already."
Looking at the MLB's
Landon Johnson- gone
Vinnie Circiu- gone (and suspended)
Spencer Havner- gone (who?)
Ashlee Palmer- gone (final cuts)
This LB unit is completely overhauled, similarly to the way the CB’s & Safety position was in the first year. What impresses me the most is the churn of the defensive players. From 2009 until now, only Delmas, Levy, and Avril are still with the team defensively (and contributing). Talent was lacking, so they brought in as much talent as possible.
I love it!
I saw the preseason games
LBs may be overhauled, but they are still avg to below avg. It seemed like everything past the line had to get tackled by the safeties.
yeah
you said it, it was preseason.
We won’t know until we see them for a full game. And they will be tested a TON with the likes of Blount. Probably one of the biggest tests of the year are week 1, 2, and 3…If the LBs can survive those games without being run over (they’ll obviously give up some yards though), then I think we’ll see a good unit the rest of the season as they gel.
The Dis-Assembly Line - The unofficial, official name for the next best D-line in football.
Yeah ATL, I like the personnel we have right now better than last year.
But they have not backed it up with a lot of results in the preseason. I am looking forward to them “gelling” over the season as a unit. I will predict now that Carpenter will be a starter again by the fourth game of the season.
Personally, an average group of linebackers is much better than the well below average group that we had most of last year.
"Filling a need doesn’t necessarily mean you’re getting a good player," said Schwartz. "It doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re getting a player that best fits; it doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re getting a player that’s better than what you have already."
I agree that the linebacker play was underwhelming, but...
Tulloch and Levy were getting moved around a lot and it took two games for them to just settle on positions. After they settled on where they would play for the Patriots game the linebackers got better. I saw far more good linebacker play in the Pats game and they didn’t play enough in the Bills game to really judge. Maybe you don’t like the linebacker play during preseason, but the Lions ranked #4 in the NFL for run defense in the preseason as well. That isn’t too bad, so why is everybody so down about it?
One of the problems we often have as talent evaluators is expecting more than we should. Very few teams actually stuff almost every run for a short gain, or loss. When evaluating linebackers you have to realize that half the runs are going to go for five yards or more, that is normal. When the other half get stuffed for no gain that is how you get the excellent average overall. We just want to eliminate the few runs that go for ten yards or more from happening and we will be just fine.
I never met him, but he was family to me... R.I.P. Tom Kowalski We will all miss you.
by TuffLynx on Sep 6, 2011 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
good points
lots of “jumping to conclusions”
The Dis-Assembly Line - The unofficial, official name for the next best D-line in football.
I agree,,,,in the 10-ish vicinity.
With a top 5 O to go along with it.
.Does your momma have a Big Ass like your head?
Is it Sunday yet?
I’m ready for some Lions football.
Suh, Biz Markie, Kvb , Avril , C Will, SLH, Lo-Jack , Young blood and Andre 3000 = F U Your going to die!!!! Get em boys
by smelllyfingers on Sep 6, 2011 8:28 AM EDT reply actions 5 recs
The Devil's Advocate
Now, here is the disclaimer before you form a lynch mob, I’m going to take a different view just so you can see the flip side. I’m not anticipating this to be the case, but it’s important to take a harder look at what we have.
Defensive End: Kyle Vanden Bosch, Cliff Avril, Lawrence Jackson, Willie Young
“Time is the inescapable master”, one of a number of useless quotes I have, and time may be finally catching up with Kyle Vanden Bosch. Although he has a lengthy injury history, the rearing of it this early in the year may signal the beginning of the huge production dropoff we have all dreaded. It remains to be seen if he is the same player he was last year. On the other side, Cliff Avril, he of the many snobby quotes regarding his primary focus on his contract, had a decent season last year with three others on the defensive line taking attention off of him. He showed that he can be a contributor on an All-Star line, but has yet to prove that he’s not Kalimbe Edwards reborn. Lawrence Jackson has been impressive as a situational pass rusher, but has yet to establish that he can do much else. Willie Young has also shown flashes of brilliance in the preseason against guys who are currently applying to be insurance salesmen near their alma mater’s.
Defensive Tackle: Ndamukong Suh, Corey Williams, Sammie Hill, Nick Fairley, Andre Fluellen
Suh is the Beast that brings it all together. After a stellar rookie campaign unlike any rookie at the position before him, all he has to do this year is repeat the performance. Cory Williams does a good job with his gap and plugs the hole well, occasionally breaking through and creating pressure. Sammie Lee Hill needs to step up his game this year and prove he’s more than just a warm body with a pulse when he gets in. Nick Fairley, after looking supremely underwhelmed about his draft selection by the Lions, has bounced back nicely on the PR side, but has yet to play a down and remains an unknown quantity. Fluellen managed to hang on for another year, and has positioned himself nicely to take advantage of free agency next year as a young tackle in his prime, even though he has accomplished nothing of significance. This unit still doesn’t stop enough interior running plays for all the pressure they bring, but remains a strength of the team. Given the teams lofty expectations for the year, it might be a smarter move to cut Fluellen and sign Pat Williams for the season. Williams run stuffing presence could be invaluable on third and short.
Linebacker: DeAndre Levy, Stephen Tulloch, Justin Durant, Bobby Carpenter, Isaiah Ekejiuba, Ashlee Palmer, Doug Hogue
After a horrendous year for the man in the middle, Lions brass must have heard my scream all the way from Rapid City, “Get a real F’n Middle Linebacker already!!!!” To their credit, they did exactly that. Stephen Tulloch is the Rodney Dangerfield of Middle Linebackers, despite being the second leading tackler last year, he drew only lukewarm interest on a decidedly hectic free agent market. Also coming in is Justin Durant, although most will agree that trading Ernie Sims was no great loss, Durant will undoubtedly fill the void better than a 7th round draft pick, but comes with a long and troubling medical chart. On the other side, they wheelchaired DeAndre “Glassman” Levy out of the middle with one instruction – Stay Healthy for once. Palme and Carpenter are versatile backups, who will hopefully remain just that this year. Isaiah Ekejiuba is good on special teams, but still lacks linebacker skill refinement, although he DID do a competent job when pressed into duty last year. Hogue is the only unijured rookie from this years draft class. Showed good speciasl teams ability and flashes at linebacker when he got in.
Cornerback: Chris Houston, Eric Wright, Alphonso Smith, Aaron Berry, Brandon McDonald
Ok, Chris, you got the contract, now lets see if you continue to perform one year removed from the underachiever label that sent you packing from Atlanta. Welcome to Detroit Mr. Wright, we hope you do better here than you did in Cleveland. The Fonz has a lame foot, we can only hope it doesn’t impede him when he comes back. Foot injuries are harder to recover from than most people think. Aaron Berry has received the fan vote, but has yet to prove on the field he’s any more than an UDFA from Pitt. McDonald has looked good against second teamers all pre-season.
Safety: Louis Delmas, Amari Spievey, Erik Coleman, John Wendling
Delmas, in his third year, has shown signs of regression from his rookie year. He no longer seems to understand what the appendages sticking out from his shoulders are for, or how they relate to tackling a ball-carrier. Every hit seems like an audition for Spotscenter instead of a tackle.Spievey has come a long way, and looked to be the better of the two safeties this preseason. Coleman didn’t do a great deal to impress, but was more solid than people seem to give him credit for, could end up overtaking Delmas on the depth chart by midseason. Wendling is here because he run down field very fast on kickoff and find ball then hit guy very very hard.
OK, that’s out of the way. Confront your demons and eradicate them. I have never seen a Lions D with more boom potential, or more bust potential either. I can’t wait for Sunday. Goooooo LLLLIIIIIIIIOOOOOOONNNNNNSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you.
I really dislike this line:
but has yet to prove that he’s not Kalimbe Edwards reborn.. Avril had a crzy amount of pressures last year and was clearly a force – he collapses the pocket so fast, it really aids Suh big time.
SMH completly showed up as a pass rusher last year. Maybe you need to pay more attention when he’s in there.
No reason for Pat Williams at all. Way downside of career and C Williams is a much better Williams at this point (even at run stuffing).
The Dis-Assembly Line - The unofficial, official name for the next best D-line in football.
by rames on Sep 6, 2011 11:08 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
and how is Levy made out of glass because he had two injuries last year???
he was healthy as a rook from what I remember and has been healthy all offseason…wierdo
The Dis-Assembly Line - The unofficial, official name for the next best D-line in football.
Levy was injured his rookie year, nothing serious, but missed a couple games.
I think he tweaked his ankle if memory serves, but the pounding he took last year proved to me that he doesn’t have the frame to be a middle linebacker.
Also, thank you for the personal reference attacking my character when my comments were designed to inspire nothing more than conversation.
Thank you.
Recked you rames.
Adding a guy like Pat Williams is incomprehensible to me. He could not make this roster IMO.
I agree about Avril too. For the first couple years of his career he applied pressure to the QB without any other help from his D Line teammates. I think he helps Suh by forcing the QB to step more than Suh helps him by pushing the pocket back.
"Filling a need doesn’t necessarily mean you’re getting a good player," said Schwartz. "It doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re getting a player that best fits; it doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re getting a player that’s better than what you have already."
can't agree more with the both of you.
"Football isn't a contact sport, it's a collision sport. Dancing is a contact sport."
--Duffy Daugherty
by GhostManOnThird on Sep 6, 2011 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
On Avril
During his rookie season for the 0-16 squad, he made an impact in limited action with 5 sacks. In 09, as a defacto starter with increased playing time, he still got 5.5 sacks, but was seen as lesser that season due to a lack of increased production proportianate to the increase in snaps. Last year, with Suh taking double teams, his production rose to 8.5 sacks. More in line with what you may have hoped to see in 09. Is Avril a force? Absolutely, yes. Can he do it without help? Probably not. Avril benefitted from Suh, not vice-versa.
Thank you.
thats my profile picture lol
A coward dies a thousands Deaths a soldier dies once ....
by JaiGaiaAries on Sep 6, 2011 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
He ain't heavy man, he's my brother.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 6, 2011 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Where?
TCLion?
I’ve been here a LONG time and I recognize him… when did you come over to POD?
One thing you’d know if you’ve been here for a while is that we welcome different opinions and views (even those fans of other teams). We typically don’t call out trolls and shun them from the board.
Just sayin’.
TCLion is no troll
Just a willfull Lion who roams the outer plains, gracing us with his presence and wisdom from time to time.
by Hyperion Ecta on Sep 7, 2011 1:29 AM EDT up reply actions
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