Two Bro's Talk - 2011 Lions Defensive Line Grades

by TuffLynx on Jan 12, 2012 12:37 AM EST

Now that the 2011 season is done for the Lions, it is a good time to take a look at how the Lions performed during the season. This is the first installment in a series of six, where the Two Bro's will talk about different aspects of the Lions team and grade how the players performed. In this edition Evilsmurf and Tufflynx talk about the players on defensive line, not only how they performed during the season, but the outlook for each player going into next season.

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The D-line can be summed up in three words: Fairley, Fairley, Fairley.

If Fairley is healthy, you don’t need Williams. If Fairley is healthy and you have him playing next to Suh then you have the most dynamic tackle tandem in the NFL. It also means that the ends will be far more effective. You don’t need all world DE’s for this work.

Lo-jack now becomes very effective because he is better on containment of the quarterback and better against the run. Willie Young also becomes a big factor.

If Fairley is healthy, the starting line up should be Lo-jack, Suh, Fairley and Young. The capable backups would be Williams and KVB. Actually, all it would do is reduce the snaps for Williams and KVB and make them far more effective. That would be a killer lineup.

You also get to keep Kyle’s leadership and you can draft a DE to develop and provide depth. Like I said, This really depends on Fairley.

I still love Suh’s play. I think his squaring up has more to do with him trying to work on stopping the run. Suh’s impact is the adjustments he forces on the offense. What’s been disappointing to me, is that the Lions have taken little advantage of it. The line I’ve proposed, I think will do just that.

by rekar on Jan 12, 2012 12:42 PM EST reply actions

So you are cutting Cliff loose and gutting our D Line depth.

One injury and our line is in real trouble. It is not realistic to expect everyone to play all season without injury. Look at last year. Suh, Lawrence, and Young all out at the same time and Fairley hobbled by a bad foot. We would be reaching for guys on waivers to fill out our line up.

The supposed strength of this defence is the D Line. That means you need depth. That is why they drafted Fairley [besides he was by far the best player available] last year even though we had Suh, Corey, and Sammie Lee as solid DTs.

"I’m sorry for all the people who want us to run the ball 40 times a game, but we’re going to put the ball in No. 9’s hands and he’s going to make plays for us like he did today," Lions coach Jim Schwartz said. Amen to that Jim!

by NorthLeft12 on Jan 12, 2012 3:27 PM EST up reply actions

Letting Cliff go isn't gutting the DLine

We would be giving most of snaps to Lojack and would be looking for a good pass rushing DE. to develop.

We really have to face the fact that this is an ongoing process and the pieces have to fit. We need to get both Young and Lojack snaps and keep developing more Dline talent. How is that to happen if we pay Cliff the big money?

by rekar on Jan 12, 2012 5:03 PM EST up reply actions

Cliff will not be getting as much as you think he will be getting. Probably around $7 to $8 Million.

The problem is that we need to have another DE to replace him that can step in and get some pressure on the QB. Lawrence is a solid player, but he is not the pass rusher that Cliff is, and frankly really good pass rushers are hard to find.

I am pretty sure the Lions can keep Cliff if he is willing to take under $8 Million per year.

by NorthLeft12 on Jan 12, 2012 10:22 PM EST up reply actions

Given the cap, I think that's too much

Look, what I’m proposing is certainly not an ideal solution. It is one that I think will give us close to the same outcome overall and that’s what we’re talking about.

I don’t think Cliff is that much of a upgrade over Lojack and without Cliff we can give his present salary to someone capable of joining the rotation. We then have the cap space to sign our other people. The next 3 years are going to be a problem for the Lions to squeeze through and, it just seems, that Avril’s contract comes at a bad time.

Like I said, not ideal but doable.

by rekar on Jan 13, 2012 10:38 AM EST up reply actions

You think KVB is a bargain at $5 Mil?

There is really no comparison between what Cliff Avril offers this team now and in the future versus what KVB gives us now and in the future.

If you want him as an inspirational leader and mentor, great! Offer him a coaching position, but keep him off the playing field.

by NorthLeft12 on Jan 13, 2012 11:59 AM EST up reply actions

I have to admit that I don't understand your take.

Cliff Avril had 36 tackles, 11 sacks, and 6 forced fumbles and you feel he is worth $8 million.
KVB had 35 tackles, 8 sacks, and 4 forced fumbles, you you do not feel he is worth $5 million.

Sorry, but that just does not seem consistent to me. When you add in the leadership of Kyle Vanden Bosch on top of his performance then he is easily worth $5 million if Avril is worth $8 million. Obviously, you are entitled to your opinion, but maybe you are selling KVB a bit short here?

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by TuffLynx on Jan 13, 2012 2:37 PM EST up reply actions

Ditto

by rekar on Jan 13, 2012 3:20 PM EST up reply actions

Cliff is 25 [our youngest DE] and has consistently improved year to year.

KVB is 33, has some serious injury issues [where Cliff has been amazingly healthy] and is obviously on the decline of his career.

Come on, this is not even close. I acknowledge KVB’s importance to the growth of the Lions over the last couple of years, but his play on the field has not been up to Cliff’s, or Lawrence, or Willie’s this last year. Moving forward, KVB will not be the contributor that Cliff or those other two will be.

I don’t want to dump KVB, but if the choice was Cliff or KVB I think the choice is pretty obvious.

by NorthLeft12 on Jan 15, 2012 10:50 PM EST up reply actions

That is not where my problem stems from.

I am not saying that KVB should make as much as Cliff Avril. I am saying that it does not seem to be consistent to begrudge $5 million to KVB if you are willing to give $8 million to Avril. The difference in performance is not as great as you are trying to make it sound. I guess we are just not going to see eye-to-eye on this.

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by TuffLynx on Jan 17, 2012 4:24 PM EST up reply actions

not to mention the fact that Left Tackles are usually always better than Right Tackles

by Veihl789 on Jan 16, 2012 1:33 PM EST up reply actions

KVB needs to be paid

A team gets what it pays for. If a team believes that leadership is an essential core value and they want to develop it then they should put the dollars behind it. I think, in the long run, character will carry you through the vagaries of a season better than anything else.

KVB needs his snaps reduced but for what he is and does, I think his pay is fine.

by rekar on Jan 12, 2012 12:52 PM EST reply actions

As far as KVB goes, he got his bonus and two years of high pay.

I appreciate what he has given this franchise, but at some point you have to do what is right for the team. Personally, I hope they keep him this year at a reduced rate and play him less. A lot less.

by NorthLeft12 on Jan 12, 2012 3:29 PM EST up reply actions

As far as I know KVB is still under contract for a bit, but you never know when a deal can be renegotiated or a guy can be cut / released

Ndamukong Suh - Bringing 50's football back to Motown!

by Evilsmurf on Jan 12, 2012 3:57 PM EST up reply actions

Per Rotoworld

Kyle Vanden Bosch Defensive Lineman 3/5/2010: Signed a four-year, $26 million contract. The deal includes $10 million in first-year guarantees. 2011: $810,000 (+ $3.69 million “signing” bonus), 2012-2013: $5 million, 2014: Free Agent

So we have him at 5 mil a year for next year and the year after. Not a bad deal if you ask me.

Ndamukong Suh - Bringing 50's football back to Motown!

by Evilsmurf on Jan 12, 2012 4:02 PM EST up reply actions

that 2nd year signing bonus

sounds like he has 1.3 mil spread over cap hit for 11, 12, and 13. I think he’s worth the hit, but it’s unfortunate there doesn’t look like there could be a whole lot of wiggle room in his contract without further leveraging the situation.

Individuals should protect themselves. Governments can't protect individuals from themselves, it's just impossible, otherwise they become a tyranical state. -Ron Paul

by Ee Oulo on Jan 15, 2012 4:15 AM EST up reply actions

1.3m each of those years

Individuals should protect themselves. Governments can't protect individuals from themselves, it's just impossible, otherwise they become a tyranical state. -Ron Paul

by Ee Oulo on Jan 15, 2012 4:15 AM EST up reply actions

KVB is the key to developing our future DLine

We have a slew of young up and coming players developing on the DLine. He instills his way and I guess Schwartz’s way of playing DLine. It is imperative that over the next two years that we have him to provide the leadership to grow that line.

5 mil is cheap for what he can do for us

by rekar on Jan 12, 2012 5:29 PM EST up reply actions

I have to agree

furthermore I hope they’re teaching him more about the coaching process to help segue into his next career….. with the Lions.

Individuals should protect themselves. Governments can't protect individuals from themselves, it's just impossible, otherwise they become a tyranical state. -Ron Paul

by Ee Oulo on Jan 15, 2012 4:16 AM EST up reply actions

I've seen a regression in all d-lineman across the league

I don’t know if it was to protect the QB or equalize the playing field because of all the talent coming out of college on the d-line the past few years but the NFL seemed to have an agenda to allow the interior o-lineman to get away with more holding this year then in previous years very few holding calls throughout the league even our lions benefitted.

We came! We saw! We lost to the Saints
The 2012 Lions will conquer

by Wayne Fontes on Jan 13, 2012 4:18 PM EST reply actions

I think that is a fair judgment

I had noticed the same thing this year. The down side of all that is if the NFL continues to protect the QB by allowing holding, it may be hard for the Lions to reap the benefits they are seeking from all the money they have poured into the defensive line. Eventually it would resolve itself as players had to negotiate new contracts though.

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by TuffLynx on Jan 13, 2012 9:32 PM EST up reply actions

it really is a bullshit way of doing things too isn't it :/

They really do seem to want to try and make the game as bombastic offense based as they can.

Individuals should protect themselves. Governments can't protect individuals from themselves, it's just impossible, otherwise they become a tyranical state. -Ron Paul

by Ee Oulo on Jan 15, 2012 4:18 AM EST up reply actions

After watching the 49ers DL pressure Brees all night...

I am even more convinced that we have serious problems with our DL scheme. The niners have a good defense, but there is no reason they should be getting more production from their DL than us given the resources we’ve spent there.

by ziggyz on Jan 14, 2012 10:01 PM EST reply actions

The Niners have one guy on their D Line who is nearly unblockable.

Justin Smith totally dominated the Saints O Line. He plays up to the hype that Suh gets.

Also remember that the Niners play a 3 -4 so they vary the extra rusher from many different positions, and that extra rusher [Aldon Smith] is one hell of a pass rusher.

by NorthLeft12 on Jan 15, 2012 10:53 PM EST up reply actions

At some point, Suh and Fairley will both be like that, they are just young pups yet

Ndamukong Suh - Bringing 50's football back to Motown!

by Evilsmurf on Jan 17, 2012 2:11 PM EST up reply actions

Also consider what the Giants line did to the Packers

A 4-3 is fine, it just has to be done right. Not that I am saying we are doing it wrong completely, but something has to give.

Ndamukong Suh - Bringing 50's football back to Motown!

by Evilsmurf on Jan 17, 2012 2:12 PM EST up reply actions

I know they run a 3-4

I don’t care what the reason is. Bottom line, they got more of a pass rush than we did, and given the resources we’ve spent up front, that’s unacceptable. Our coaches need to make adjustments.

by ziggyz on Jan 17, 2012 7:59 PM EST up reply actions