True or False; How the Lions Stack Up
by Bret Crino on Jan 2, 2012 12:56 PM EST
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PrintThis is where I would put the over/under line on these players, what do you think? True or False?
Cliff Avril is a top five DE.
Matthew Stafford is a top five QB.
Brandon Pettigrew is a top three TE.
Calvin Johnson is the best 1 WR.
Nate Burleson is a top ten 2 WR.
Titus Young is a top five 3 WR
Jason Hanson is a top ten Kicker
Chris Houston is a top ten CB
Eric Wright is a top 20 CB
DeAndre Levy is a top five Will LB
Stefan Logan is a top ten returner.
Amari Spievey is a top ten Safety.
Stephen Tulloch is a top ten Mike LB
Jim Schwartz is a top five coach
Scott Linehan is a top three OC
Gunther Cunningham is a top ten DC
Ndamukong Suh is a top ten DT
Bobby Carpenter is the best "6th man" on Defense
Alphonso Smith is a top five nickel.
Kyle Vanden Bosch is a top 10 DE
If I am even close on these estimations, Detroit is a very talented team.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Pride of Detroit or its writers. FanPosts are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable fans.
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My Thoughts
Cliff Avril is a top five DE. – No, Top 10 Definatly but their are just too many good DE’s
Matthew Stafford is a top five QB. – Hands down, only Rodgers, Brees, and Brady are clearly better.
Brandon Pettigrew is a top three TE. – No, Top 10 yes but Graham, Gronk, Finley and a few more are better.
Calvin Johnson is the best 1 WR. – Yes, Don’t even ask me that.
Nate Burleson is a top ten 2 WR. – Yes, He could a #1 on many teams.
Titus Young is a top five 3 WR – Don’t know about Top 5, but Top 10 definatly.
Jason Hanson is a top ten Kicker – Eh… Maybe, don’t really know.
Chris Houston is a top ten CB – No, top 15 yes but not good enough.
Eric Wright is a top 20 CB – Maybe, like with the DE’s there are just a lot of good CB’s.
DeAndre Levy is a top five Will LB – No, average
Stefan Logan is a top ten returner. – No, don’t even ask me that. Pissed at him this season
Amari Spievey is a top ten Safety. – Top 20 yes, don’t know if hes that good yet.
Stephen Tulloch is a top ten Mike LB – Yes, maybe even top 5.
Jim Schwartz is a top five coach – Yes, would be coach of year if Harbaugh hadn’t fucked it up.
Scott Linehan is a top three OC – Top 10 yes, Top 5 maybe, Top 3 No
Gunther Cunningham is a top ten DC – Yes
Ndamukong Suh is a top ten DT- I think he is THE best DT in football
Bobby Carpenter is the best “6th man” on Defense – The Phonz?? Maybe? Idk about that, Willie Young would be my pick.
Alphonso Smith is a top five nickel. Top 15 yes, top 5 is streching it.
Kyle Vanden Bosch is a top 10 DE – Used to be, has regressed
Datsyukian Deke, Detroit Red Wings Blog
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The Phonse probably isn't a top five now.
He is too risky, when he learns to know when to hold em and know when to fold em he will be top five easily.
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I was going to post my own t/f reply but you pretty much summed it up for me
The changes I’d make to yours Det! are:
TDY/Burleson, while that’s their role this season I think the roles will be switched next season in terms of targets/receptions.
Spievey and Levy both would be in the avg range for me so top 20 at best
Schwartz, still too much to learn, top 10 no problem
Liney, no way, avg at best, he has good points but he seems to be way to flawed in OL and RB usage and gets to be far to predictable almost like in a Martzesque type rut
Suh, I’d stick with the top 10 part
I’d like to add:
Mayhew, top 5 GM!!!
Individuals should protect themselves. Governments can't protect individuals from themselves, it's just impossible, otherwise they become a tyranical state. -Ron Paul
Mayhew definitely, Linehan's offense just had the 4th most pass yards in NFL history.
I look at spievey and levy differently. These two guys quietly hold this team together and their stats prove they are better than average especially spievey at SS. The other thing I can’t believe fans don’t see is how special Cliff Avril is. He is clearly a top five DE. He has eleven sacks and six FF and 3 Fumble recoveries and one for a TD and a Pick6. If you all can think back to the dark period of this season when personal fouls were prevalent, Avril had at least 5 or six sacks taken away. He had two taken away in a game twice if i remember correctly. The guy is a star, as a courtesy to KVB Avril isn’t on the blind side. If he were…add a few more to his totals.
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I like Linny
I just think has been too conservative at times. However, as our team matures and improves I think he does as well.
Datsyukian Deke, Detroit Red Wings Blog
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I'm not so sure about moving to the blind side being better
The QB would not be able to see him, but typically the LTs are better at dealing with athletic pass rushers like Avril. Also, I don’t think you can count sacks taken away, unless it was by another team member, but I definitely remember him getting calls on a couple of occasions when he made plays. I think Cliff could be a top 5 DE, but it is really hard to judge because there is a lot of talent at that position in the NFL.
True or False?
Cliff Avril is a top five DE.
- false
Matthew Stafford is a top five QB.
- TRUE
Brandon Pettigrew is a top three TE.
- false
Calvin Johnson is the best 1 WR.
- TRUE
Nate Burleson is a top ten 2 WR.
- false
Titus Young is a top five 3 WR
- TRUE
Jason Hanson is a top ten Kicker
- TRUE
Chris Houston is a top ten CB
- false
Eric Wright is a top 20 CB
- false
DeAndre Levy is a top five Will LB
- false
Stefan Logan is a top ten returner.
- false
Amari Spievey is a top ten Safety.
- false
Stephen Tulloch is a top ten Mike LB
- TRUE
Jim Schwartz is a top five coach
- TRUE
Scott Linehan is a top three OC
- false
Gunther Cunningham is a top ten DC
- false
Ndamukong Suh is a top ten DT
- TRUE
Bobby Carpenter is the best “6th man” on Defense
- false
Alphonso Smith is a top five nickel.
- false
Kyle Vanden Bosch is a top 10 DE
- false
Hey that's a timeout, I can play right? yeah, get me--get the F-- Help me up...I can throw the ball if you need me to throw the ball...
I agree with all of these except one...
I dont think Schwartz is a top 5 coach. He has the potential to become that and has done a great job turning the team around, but I would not put him there right now.
by Adam Keith on Jan 3, 2012 12:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
this is a good post cuz it really gets you thinkin
1. False, maybe top ten
2. False, but its close. Brees,Brady,Manning,Rodgers,Rothlesberger. Cant argue.with 2 SB
3. False and not even really close
4. TRUE
5. TRUE
6. TRUE
7. TRUE
8. False not even close
9. TRUE (might be a stretch)
10. False
11. False
12. False
13. False
14. TRUE
15. False
16. False
17. TRUE
18. False
19. TRUE
20. False
just win, baby
Thank you Kris Draper and Chris Osgood for all the memories.
Millen shall be Mi**en on Pride of Detriot. New, official, unwritten law.
I am surprised with the lack of faith in Pettigrew Levy and Spievey.
The numbers support my claims. Pett his third in catches behind the obvious leaders gronk and grahm. But he is also a complete TE with his blocking. Levy doesn’t have sacks because we don’t blitz him and it’s a 4-3 defense. He is third in tackles among Wills. All the sacking OLB’s have half the tackles. Amari has a sack and 3 picks and 70 solo tackles, good luck finding ten better SS than that.
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Even the horrible commentators say that pettigrew is one of the best if not the best blocking
tight end in the league. I agree with that statement, he is very versatile and I think people mainly discount him due to the drops.As far as levy and speivey, I agree with levy I think he has been strong but silent. He had 11 tackles or so in one game this season but speivey gets eaten up more often than i’d like to see.I think he will get better in time but I disagree with him being a top SS in this league.
Cool
Cliff Avril is a top five DE.
False
Matthew Stafford is a top five QB.
True
Brandon Pettigrew is a top three TE.
False
Calvin Johnson is the best 1 WR.
True
Nate Burleson is a top ten 2 WR.
False
Titus Young is a top five 3 WR
True
Jason Hanson is a top ten Kicker
True
Chris Houston is a top ten CB
True when healthy
Eric Wright is a top 20 CB
True WOOOP
DeAndre Levy is a top five Will LB
FALSE
Stefan Logan is a top ten returner.
False
Amari Spievey is a top ten Safety.
A top ten Strong Safety yes
Stephen Tulloch is a top ten Mike LB
True
Jim Schwartz is a top five coach
False He’s still got stuff to learn, but he’s close.
Scott Linehan is a top three OC
False
Gunther Cunningham is a top ten DC
False Would’ve been different a few games ago.
Ndamukong Suh is a top ten DT
True
Bobby Carpenter is the best “6th man” on Defense
False
Alphonso Smith is a top five nickel.
False
Kyle Vanden Bosch is a top 10 DE
False
President of the Eric Wright fan club, but I love me some Aaron Berry.
Obligatory statement about being a huge Lions fan.
I have a twitter: Follow Me
I should have clarified SS
for spievey. generally the top namws are FS.
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by Bret Crino on Jan 2, 2012 3:29 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Cliff Avril is a top five DE. FALSE, top 10 maybe
Matthew Stafford is a top five QB. TRUE
Brandon Pettigrew is a top three TE. FALSE, top 5 isn’t a stretch though
Calvin Johnson is the best 1 WR. TRUE, nobody is better right now
Nate Burleson is a top ten 2 WR. FALSE
Titus Young is a top five 3 WR. TRUE, though I think he’s become number 2
Jason Hanson is a top ten Kicker. TRUE, for nothing more than consistency
Chris Houston is a top ten CB. FALSE, maybe top 15
Eric Wright is a top 20 CB. TRUE
DeAndre Levy is a top five Will LB. FALSE, he loses outside contain too much
Stefan Logan is a top ten returner. TRUE
Amari Spievey is a top ten Safety. FALSE
Stephen Tulloch is a top ten Mike LB TRUE
Jim Schwartz is a top five coach FALSE, I like him, but he isn’t top 5 yet.
Scott Linehan is a top three OC, FALSE
Gunther Cunningham is a top ten DC FALSE, get rid of the damn wide 9
Ndamukong Suh is a top ten DT TRUE, but I’d say he’s top 2 (Ngata), maybe even 1
Bobby Carpenter is the best “6th man” on Defense, FALSE. He’s not even the best backup on the team
Alphonso Smith is a top five nickel. FALSE, he gets burned way too much
Kyle Vanden Bosch is a top 10 DE
I couldn't think of a better signature.
Whoops, forgot KVB
FALSE, he’s a major liability in the run game
I couldn't think of a better signature.
Who's the best backup?
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I can see that but..
I didn’t include DT’s because they have a steady rotation. I suppose that is a truer sixth man comparison. Carpenter is a true back up.
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Don't think you can definitively say Suh is a top 2 DT as some people have been saying
Been above average this year, but not special.
Cause he gets doubled or tripled on like every play....
If he was one v one then he would have another 10 sack season. Suh is also a absolute beast in the run game.
Datsyukian Deke, Detroit Red Wings Blog
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Suh could be top three DT's but it's hard to evaluate him this year.
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name one top 20 DT that can not say the same
He severely underperformed this season and a lot of people saw it coming.
His off season was not about football. Hopefully he is more committed this off season.
Beast in the run game? No he is not. In fact. One could say he was a liability in the run game last season and has improved to perhaps average (that is probably giving too much credit.) Seriously, the guy has like 36 tackles and 4 sacks on the season. I am not sure he was even a top 10 DT this season.
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It's hard to say someone is top 3 because of double teams.
Still have to produce…example: Calvin Johnson still had a phenomenal year despite the double teams. Suh kind of disappeared this year, probably causing his frustrating personal fouls.
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Double Team
On DT’s is different than double teaming a reciever. A reciever can still run past the DB’s but Suh is stuck with 2 300 pound holding him in place.
Datsyukian Deke, Detroit Red Wings Blog
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Yes all positions are different but at DT
you need tackles or sacks or disruption to be graded. You can’t just absorb blocks and be a top talent. I think Suh is great but he needs to crack this code before I am crowning him the king.
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Or if you don't have the numbers
for no RBs to come to your gap, but I have definitely seen RBs get yards running through the hole where Suh started on the play. Kind of like a shutdown CB, they may not see many targets, a great DT may not see many run plays come their way, but Suh has.
Even if suh was getting double/triple teamed
Then where in the hell was the production from the other on the D line(excluding avril) that should have had clear shots at the QB. I like suh and think he “can” be a top DT but this season I completely agree with Joshun he has seriously under performed.43 total sacks on the season should be a laugh with the supposed “talent” on our d line.
Suh good, but overrated
Suh is good, but overrated. I replayed the Thanksgiving game. Suh played 38 downs. Two running plays went through his gap. One went for four; one for fourteen. On passing downs, the Packers only intentionally double-teamed him once. (Often Suh rushed the center-guard gap and the Packers center would chip him.) Suh never pushed Rodgers off his spot, never sniffed Rodgers in that game.
I had to listen to the Lambeau game on radio as I was traveling. I’ll watch the DVR later this week. I heard that Suh sacked Flynn once and got up and did his “2nd In The Division, 6th Playoff Seed” Belt celebration. Good for him.
Nitschke never wore an earring!
Stay classy Pack fans
Just remember all those smart comments when the shoe is on the other foot. which is coming a lot faster than you think.
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The media hyped up Suh yes. And then a few mistakes later they ate him alive.
What do you expect, Suh to get 2 sacks and 5 tackles for loss every game? Every Lions fan and any football fan with a bit of common sense knows otherwise. Your gonna call him not one of the best DT in the league right now based on one game against a 15-1 team? And then you take away the legitimacy of a sack because he did a celebration? Get out of here.
"You simply cannot escape it. It's everywhere. There is a feeling the likes of which we haven't seen in decades. Emotions are high. Morale is climbing. People, once again, have something to talk about other than how disastrous our financial situation is and the collapsing of modern society." - Yahoo sports blogger.
Nitschke had a Prince Albert.
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DTs get double-teamed all the time.
And many still produce more than Suh. Especially considering that in a 4 man rush, someone needs to be double-teamed pretty much by rule (need 5 non-eligible players)
Great players can deal with it, they don’t disappear for games at a time.
OK, here is my take on it...
Cliff Avril is a top five DE. No, he is not even top five in the NFC, let alone the entire NFL.
Matthew Stafford is a top five QB. Yes, absolutely. He is still getting better too.
Brandon Pettigrew is a top three TE. If you are talking about COMPLETE tight ends, then yes. If you are talking about receiving, then no. Many of the big performers at tight end do not block well at all.
Calvin Johnson is the best 1 WR. Yes, he is. ’nuff said.
Nate Burleson is a top ten 2 WR. Yes he is. Burleson finished the season tied for #24 in receptions and he averaged over ten yards per reception. That means that he helps move the chains better than some #1 receivers. Now consider that nine of the guys that finished with more receptions were tight ends or running backs. While Nate will not stretch the field very much, he is perfectly capable of taking a pass on a slant and busting it for a score because he runs very well after the catch. He was one of the best possession receivers in the NFL this season. If the Lions would use him better he would put up more impressive numbers.
Titus Young is a top five 3 WR. Not yet, but he will be next season. Titus is really beginning to blossom as a player and if he continues to progress as he did this year, he will probably become our #2 receiver next season.
Jason Hanson is a top ten Kicker. Not if he keeps missing kicks that end up costing us the game. He did that a couple times this season.
Chris Houston is a top ten CB Maybe. No, maybe top 20, but not top ten.
Eric Wright is a top 20 CB. Yes, when his groin is healthy he is better than Houston.
DeAndre Levy is a top five Will LB Not at this point. He still misses to many tackles. He was MUCH better late in the season than he was early.
Stefan Logan is a top ten returner. Not this year.
Amari Spievey is a top ten Safety. Not yet. He has more to prove, but he is close.
Stephen Tulloch is a top ten Mike LB. Yes, without a doubt. He is probably top five.
Jim Schwartz is a top five coach. Not yet. He has to transform the team in a more disciplined and consistent unit before he can stake that claim.
Scott Linehan is a top three OC. No. Top ten, yes.
Gunther Cunningham is a top ten DC. Yes.
Ndamukong Suh is a top ten DT. Unquestionably. He is top one when he decides to be.
Bobby Carpenter is the best “6th man” on Defense. The best on our team, yes. Best in the NFL, not even close.
Alphonso Smith is a top five nickel. No, he is not even the nickel on the Lions. Eric Wright plays the slot when the Lions go to the nickel package. ’Phonz plays an outside corner spot when he plays.
Kyle Vanden Bosch is a top 10 DE. No, but he is close.
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You are the first to point out that Phonse isn't a nickel, i was waiting for someone to say that, however
He comes in when we go to nickel (since Berry has been injured). I agree with most of your answers, I wrote this erring on the positive and thinking potential. BUT i think Scott Linehan is at least top 5, granted he has talent to work with but look at he success. But what really blows my mind is how Lions fans see Cliff Avril, help me understand your train of thoughts why does Detroit think Avril isn’t top five even in NFC????
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I can agree with Linehan being top 5, just not top three.
I think his offenses perform consistently well across multiple seasons. While I have some problems with his play calling at times, he is probably working with what he has. Since he has a stud quarterback, he tends to pass a lot by putting the ball in the hands of his best play maker, Matthew Stafford.
I feel that the Lions running game will continue to improve. It has shown marked improvement in the second half of this season. It seems that it takes some time for our offensive line to come together each season. Until they do, the running game suffers. It took until the final four games last season. They came together at the midpoint of this season. I think the Lions rushing game is better than last season despite gaining fewer total yards.
In 2010 the Lions averaged 4.0 yards per carry (19th in NFL) , and in 2011 they average 4.3 yards per carry (12th in the NFL). We like to complain about our running game, but it really isn’t as bad as people make it sound. The problem early in the season is that we had too many negative plays from the running game. As the season progressed the running backs (and offensive line) did a better job of making positive yards, even if it was only two or three.
In the end it comes down the the Lions coaching staff hitching their star directly to Matthew Stafford and his arm.
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I am intersted in see the run game next year.
Hopefully we resign smith, get back leshoure and best and see where it goes from there.
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Yup
Next year I expect to see Jahvid Best, Mikel LeShoure, Kevin Smith, and Joique Bell, as well as one additional running back who may or may not be Stefan Logan. That should be a VERY effective running back crew.
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Thank you
Eric Wright (w/ groin issue)>Healthy Chris Houston IMO.For most of the season they weren’t even throwing Eazy E’s way. He makes good open field tackle’s and is much more consistent than Houston.
Here are some of the DEs I think are better than both KVB and Avril
Justin Tuck (NFC), Julius Peppers (NFC), Jared Allen (NFC), Dwight Freeney (AFC), Mario Williams (AFC), Robert Mathis (AFC), Trent Cole (NFC), Jason Babin (AFC). There are also 3-4 DE’s Justin Smith (NFC) and Brett Keisel (AFC). On top of this there are a couple that I would put as very close to Avril like John Abraham (NFC), Darnell Dockett (NFC) and Osi Umenyiora (NFC).
For the record I think Avril is better than KVB, but my list puts Avril at 5th best DE in the NFC and 9th in the NFL at best without taking into account 3-4 DEs. KVB would be below everyone on this list for me, 12th in the NFL at best (once again without taking into account 3-4 DEs).
One thing to note is that Avril is younger than everyone on this list I believe, so there is room for him to become one of the elite, but I don’t think he is quite there yet.
that is a good list
Jason Pierre-Paul, I would add him to that list too. I am still foggy from a lack of coffee but I really think he is better than Avril.
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"You can get a win with undisciplined jack asses, you create a winning team with discipline and poise." by Leonuro
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Tuck and Osi aren't even the best on their team!!
Jared Allen is by far superior to Avril and I would give the EDGE to Jason Pierre Paul but Brett Keisel?? Cmon Man. Peppers, you can argue, but tied for tackles with Avril, has less sacks, defended no passes (Avril has 5), Peppers has 3 less FF’s than Avril, recovered less fumbles and Avril knocks him out of the discussion with 2 TD’s and and interception. Babin has more sacks but has nothing else. Abraham’s numbers show he is tied with KVB in most categories. Justin Smith is well rounded like Avril but doesn’t come close in any category. The more I research this the better I think Avril is. This guy is NFL’s best kept secret. Trent Cole doesn’t add up either. Throw in the 5-7 sacks that were called back against Avril, remember?? I think twice he was robbed of two in a game and I remember one horse collar (that’s five I can think of from memory) Avril is the top of the class.
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Bret
I get what you are saying here but with a player like Peppers, he is not surrounded by nearly as much talent as Avril is.
If these two guys flipped teams, Avril would struggle and Peppers would turn our D line possibly into top 2 or 3 in the league.
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"You can get a win with undisciplined jack asses, you create a winning team with discipline and poise." by Leonuro
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GROW THE F UP
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"Some people mistake the way I talk for the way I am thinking."
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I get that Avril has great numbers this year,
but how good would the other guys look if they played next to our DTs? Most of the DEs listed are more of a focus for the opposing offensive line. We already made the point that Suh is doubled on most plays, for other teams the DEs get doubled quite a bit. Also, I did not use the 3-4 DEs in my rankings as I feel the positions are too different (to address the Brett Keisel issue). On the other hand I’m sure there are others I forgot, such as Suggs (the Ravens have moved to using the 4-3 primarily this year) who has very similar numbers to Avril (and also plays next to good DTs).
Also, I do think Avril is a very good player and improving
Being 10th in the NFL or thereabouts at your position is nothing to scoff at. I would love it if we had a to 10 player at every spot on the field!
DT's didn't give him a pick six or 6FF's
They may have helped with his sack total but they also hurt his sack total like I said earlier, penalties took away many of his sacks. If you want to use the talent around him argument then Avril just became better than Jason Pierre Paul who has WAY more talent around him. But truthfully I think JPP is better and Jared Allen is better, but the rest is up for debate.
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actually yeah, DTs do contribute to his Forced fumbles
They clog up the middle and push their guys back leaving the QB no where to step up. This keeps them deep in their drop back which leaves them vulnerable to an arm swipe form an otherwise out of position player that was pushed deep by the Tackle.
D line pick 6s are fun and all but they are more about luck than skill. If it was a skill thing, it would happen a whole hell of a lot more often.
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"You can get a win with undisciplined jack asses, you create a winning team with discipline and poise." by Leonuro
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GROW THE F UP
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"Some people mistake the way I talk for the way I am thinking."
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Suh had NO push this year and Corey Williams has been injured which makes
Avril’s accomplishments even more remarkable. By the way it doesn’t happen as often because it is hard to do and takes as smart well rounded athlete to do it. By the way most qb’s have a timer in their head and when DE with Avril speed gets there before the timer goes off it’s all DE no need to discuss DT’s. The qb doesn’t even have time to protect the ball. The other way Avril got sacks was being relentless a trait that makes Jared Allen the best. It’s all there for you to see…take a peek.
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I have watched
and I am not particularly impressed. The fact that an argument can be made that he has been our best defensive player depresses me to no end. He is hardly, if even, a top 10 player at his position. That does not speak well of our defensive team.
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"You can get a win with undisciplined jack asses, you create a winning team with discipline and poise." by Leonuro
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