Resigning Avril not a top 5 need!
by rammer1 on Jan 25, 2012 12:15 PM EST
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What? Well I'm slow at work today so just thought that I start up some sheet. Getting some info from BR and others. Det has 24 FA's, only 2 teams have more, Oakland 26 and the Saints with 27, the avg is 15 per team. Det does have 17 of 22 starters returning. So here is my top needs list for the off season.
1. Resign MegaTron, he has one year left on his contract, if I read it right 20M, 6 may be bonus and 14 under salary. We need room under the cap to sign other FA's, SUH and Staff both restructured their contracts and we let a 8 year punter go and signed a rook last year to get under the cap. If we don't sign MegaT to a longer contract with more bonus and far less salary then we will probably be playing with alot of min wage players and not resigning any FA's.
2. We have 2 starting LB's as Fa's and I think that signing at least Tullach to a longer contract is more important if not both him and Levy. We also have 2 backup LB's as FA's, Carpenter and Palmer.
3. CB, yes we need a shutdown CB and out starting RCB is a FA and is said to want the big bucks. Not worth it, but loosing him leaves us weaker at a weak spot. Finding a FA CB is more important. I saw 2 reports that had Wright moving on to another team.
4. OLT, This one is all over, may jump to number 2 or out of the top 5. Now I'm not a Backus hater but, with giving up multi 3-sack games this year and both injury hits on Staff last year maybe its time. Plus he played injured and went under the knife at the end of the season and its not known IF he will return or not. If not then finding a true OLT should become the highest priority.
5. QB, what? Well only 2-injuries could keep us below 8-8. One is to OL or to QB and both back-ups are FA's. Hill says that he would like to return but this is probably his last FA chance to finding a starting job. So signing or finding a QB is more important.
6. Now I have Avril as number 6, but I'm not sure of his attitude as of late. In a recent interview on returning to Det he said that he would like to but not taking any low ball offers. He said that he had alot of friends and family counting on him getting a large signing bonus. Now he is getting better but alot of his numbers are from dbl teams inside.
Other top needs may be the coaching staff. I read a report that 5 coaches were looking to move on and up to better jobs. Including Lineham, interviewing for a head coaching job and actualy I hope he gets it. He has been brilliant at times but way to predictable at others and I think we can do much better.
Don't even get me started on our RB problems.
So there it is chew it up, spit out, change the order ect. but don't even think about changing #1, it all starts there and I just finished a new software program that will cut your fingers off if you try to change that one. Now working one one that will cut your little wee wee off too so better watch out.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Pride of Detroit or its writers. FanPosts are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable fans.
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Coaches
Our coaches signed extensions this off-season. Schwartz hasn’t signed a new contract yet… but he is in the process of negotiating one. Linehan, Cunningham, and Crossman (special teams) have all been signed for multiple years.
This is what I read.
BR has the following coaches interviewing with other teams. Lineham OC, Burke LB, Fisher D assistant, Jefferson recievers, Kocurek DL. A team can buy out a current coaches contract if both teams agree and they come to a settlement agreement.
DB's coach first
Watson the DB’s coach interviewed with the Rams under Fisher according to Mlive.com on Jan 23.
EPIC FAIL ON THE TITLE!!!
I think you mean re-sign. Check Sean’s recked FanPost just above.
"I’m sorry for all the people who want us to run the ball 40 times a game, but we’re going to put the ball in No. 9’s hands and he’s going to make plays for us like he did today," Lions coach Jim Schwartz said. Amen to that Jim!
by NorthLeft12 on Jan 25, 2012 1:27 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
The timing of this FanPost is uncanny
I was busting a gut when, mere days after Sean put up his re-sign/resign post, we get this one. You beat me to the FanPost fail note. I don’t blame rammer1 though – it’s an easy mistake to make and I imagine Sean put his post up knowing full well that he would still see it used wrong 1000 times in the free agent resigning re-signing period.
by SuhSuhSuhdio on Jan 26, 2012 10:14 AM EST up reply actions
I stopped reading after
3. CB, yes we need a shutdown CB and out starting RCB is a FA and is said to want the big bucks. Not worth it, but loosing him leaves us weaker at a weak spot. Finding a FA CB is more important. I saw 2 reports that had Wright moving on to another team.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again (probably many more times), there’s one, maybe two, shutdown corners in the NFL, and that’s how it’s going to be for awhile. Revis and Asomugha are the only two, and Asomugha has declined. The “need” for a shutdown corner is not a need at all. Period.
Also, where are those reports saying that Wright is moving on? I’d doubt that to a great extent. Even if you find those “sources” I’d still doubt you.
Eric Wright and Aaron Berry live #Regan
When anyone says, "I’ll kick your ass" its implied that they’ll be using Hanson’s leg. -Leonuro
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Shutdown CB not needed but a good one is.
According to tennessean.com they have Det loosing Wright and picking up Finnegan from Tenn. Finnegan is unhappy there and has not been offered any new contract, but they have had some changes in management, so it still might come.
I'll believe it when I see it
And we have 3 good CB’s, they were all injured last year though.
Eric Wright and Aaron Berry live #Regan
When anyone says, "I’ll kick your ass" its implied that they’ll be using Hanson’s leg. -Leonuro
I have a twitter: Follow Me
3 types of "good corners"
Shutdown corners which historically the NFL may have 2 or 3 at the most in the league at the time. And in some years there may very well not even be one in the League.
Play making corners… corners that get int and PD but still give up a play now and then
Silent corner … not a shut down guy but because the other guy opposite him is so weak he never gets any action “IE cris houston 2010”……
And then you have everyone else
It shows a disconnect or a very young person to continue to throw this term “shutdown corner” around. Kinda reminds me of John Gruden coining “WIDE NINE DEFENCE” as if that was just made up this year (even though teams have used that for over 20 something years)… only reason it is specifically different for Detroit is because of its use on all 3 downs
Some fans seem to think of real life football as if it is a video game.
As this relates to this post i find it hard to evaluate the corner play as the pass rush was weak this year. I called it from the start… the edge rush was totally average outside of some good rush by Avril.
Also Lions fans need to realize you CAN’T EVEN BEGIN TO evaluate the coverage till you can stop the run. I think it is a titanic misevaluation of the Lions team to try to fix a part that isn’t the driving force behind the struggling on defense. You can’t stop the run then you have NOOOO hope to stop the pass. Corners are at a disadvantage if they aren’t in known passing situations. You guys think Carlos Rodgers all of a sudden figured out how to play football (well maybe he figured out how to catch the ball) … but the key is he is play vs 2nd and 11 vice 2nd and 3.
Anyone who knows ANYTHING about this game knows you simply can’t defend a two headed monster. To fix the Defense it absolutely doesn’t start with reaching on any of these 2nd tier corners in the first round when none can really be ranked higher than the current set of corners on the roster 1 through 2..(drafting a first round nickle back = fail)
It is my opinion that drafting BPA regardless of position is the best way to go….Mike Adams could meet that value… Merciless could meet that value…. Alshon Jeffery could meet that value… Peter Kronz…. doesn’t matter what position. Just meet the value of the pick
I myself would love to see the Lions draft Truman Johnson in the 2nd round… he meets the value and is a big physical corner with play making ability. Or Bruce Irvin who regardless of position is the best pass rusher in this draft in the 2nd. First pick has to be BPA.. you can’t fall in love with one player and blindly pick that player at 23… evaluation of who is there MUST be veeted… IE like the selection of Nick Fairly. It makes sense because it is the best player there when your time to pick comes up.
Lots of teams can stop the pass without stopping the run.
ie. The Packers…….2010 version. They finished fifth in passing yards allowed [with the lowest QB rating against] while finishing with the second worst rushing YPC [4.7] against and the 18th most yards given up.
The Raiders last year were second in fewest passing yards allowed while giving up the fourth most rushing yards.
This last year? The Browns allowed the second fewest passing yards [9th lowest passer rating] and gave up the third most rushing yards [4.4 YPC].
Your assumption that you cannot stop the pass unless you stop the run is easily shown to be false.
"I’m sorry for all the people who want us to run the ball 40 times a game, but we’re going to put the ball in No. 9’s hands and he’s going to make plays for us like he did today," Lions coach Jim Schwartz said. Amen to that Jim!
Your assumption that you cannot stop the pass unless you stop the run is easily shown to be false.
it is common sense. Of course the packers could do that if they are scoring and have leads.
This doesn’t take away from the fact that defending 2nd and 3 is much more difficult than defending 2nd and 11 as a corner. You can’t even remotely try to debate this undeniable fact. Stats like this don’t support the truth. If you giving up rushing yards to teams like the Saints and Packers then you are screwed. But if you are stopping them cold then you have a chance to get them in known passing situations. This isn’t a new concept… this is basic football common sense.
The Lions secondary is suspect i admit. But if this team wants to fix the defense it starts with stopping the run. (2nd year in a row i have said this ). You simply can’t hope to be respectable on D if you can’t win vs the run. And yes Drew Brees had a good day vs the Lions. But the rushing attack is what made it impossible to stop Brees.
You don't need a world beating defence to get to the Super Bowl.
Look at the Patriots and Giants.
Unfortunately Shank your “common sense” is not supported by real life.
(2nd year in a row i have said this )
and the second year in a row you have been wrong. The Lions did worse against the run this year, than last year, but it was their failure against the pass that hurt them more.
"I’m sorry for all the people who want us to run the ball 40 times a game, but we’re going to put the ball in No. 9’s hands and he’s going to make plays for us like he did today," Lions coach Jim Schwartz said. Amen to that Jim!
who said you need a great defense to go far in the NFL?
i didn’t.. i am only saying that IF the logic is to improve the defense then it won’t be because of any corner play. It will be because of the defense stopping the run.
Now your putting words in my mouth. I understand the state of the game. I understand that the very worst ranked defenses in the Packers and the Pats are both very good teams one of which is in the SuperBowl… it is unfair to ram both of these conversations together and then try to present a point that i am not trying to make.
POINT is any improvement on defense needs to start with stopping the run. And again the defense was suspect for that reason!!!!!. This is a totally and completely different conversation when i reference the defensive play and the overall team play… two totally different conversations
Again my comments are in reference to improvements on defense…. We could play video game football with todays rules.. but it still doesn’t take away from the rock solid valid points i made about making stops.. you play better defense when your ahead in down and distance and you do that by stopping the run and putting people in know passing situations (how the Jets be the Pats last year)….vs pass happy teams that attack you and their running game is a after thought you still will match up better if Pierre Thomas isn’t gashing you etc etc.. it atleast gives you a chance.
So yes it is pretty much >>> commons sense if your not taking someones comments out of context.
Sorry for the delay in commenting but I will simplify my answer for you.
If you don’t have the personnel or scheme to stop the pass, you will not stop the pass by stopping the run. That is a simple fact. Look at the Lions this year. They could not run very well at all, so they just kept passing. It did not matter if teams could stop them from running because that was pointless. The Lions prefer to pass, are better at passing, and are ultimately more successful when they pass. If you want to beat the Lions [or the Packers] you have to stop the pass.
Bringing up a single game anecdote of how the Jets beat the Pats by stopping the run is pointless, not to mention wrong. The Jets have an excellent pass defence with outstanding CBs. You could make a better case that they stopped the run because they could leave their two CBs alone with the Patriot WRs and dedicate the Safeties and LBs to the run and blitzing.
"I’m sorry for all the people who want us to run the ball 40 times a game, but we’re going to put the ball in No. 9’s hands and he’s going to make plays for us like he did today," Lions coach Jim Schwartz said. Amen to that Jim!
Thought i was the Only one
Everybody seems to forget that our Defense was ranked 7th against the Pass before all the injuries without the Shutdown CB that people keep Crying about. NEVER IN MY LIFE, HAVE THE LIONS RANKED TOP 10 VS THE PASS they could use better Depth thats about it.
You have a ton of misinformation in your posts
1) Its spelled Megatron…and I don’t think it’s a good idea to re-sign him until you have the other free agents taken care of. That will let Mayhew and company know exactly how much they will have to work with now and in the future.
2) Linebackers are a non issue. Dre is a RFA, so he is basically coming back to the Lions next season regardless. Unless some team signs him away. Then the Lions will be more than happy to take the pick(s) and get some more talent via draft. Tully is somewhat of an issue, but there are plenty of good MLBs out there this season. David Hawthorne, Dan Connor and Curtis Lofton are all studs and free agents. That should drive Tulloch’s price down.
3) One of the two positions that people looove to bitch about. Getting a shutdown corner is easier said than done. Right now, there is only one shutdown corner in the league: Darrelle Revis. Every corner has his strengths and weaknesses. Eric Wright is perfectly fine. Work on that defensive line to get more pressure than they did last season.
4) Who do you plan to bring in? The way it looks right now, Jeff Backus is the best LT in free agency. I doubt the Lions are going to land a stud LT that can come in and start over Backus from day one at the 23rd spot.
5) Quarterback? We have two. One is bound to sign with the Lions. If not, Kyle Orton, Donovan McNabb, David Gerrard, David Carr are all free agents. All will be looking for homes and all are pretty damn good options.
I honestly don’t think the Lions will be able to retain Cliff Avril. The free agent market for defensive players— especially defensive ends— is pretty thin. Mario Williams will more than likely go back to the Texans, which will leave Avril as the best defensive end available (based on age versus performance) in free agency and there are more than a few teams that need a defensive end right now.
If they can’t sign him, I would love to see the Lions make a push for Carl Nicks. The Saints might not be able to re-sign Brees, Colston AND Nicks if the Lions come with an aggressive offer. You want an upgrade in the running game: you go get one of the best guards in the business and say bye bye to Peterman. Tackles have been solid the last few years and healthy Best and Leshoure would take care of the rest.
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by Latif Masud on Jan 25, 2012 2:09 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
Kyle Orton, Donovan McNabb, David Gerrard, David Carr
UGH! Stanton is better than all of them… well almost all of them.
http://twitter.com/#!/rumbulls
Better that McNabb and Carr
Me like Gerrard
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Orton is the only one I'd put at or above Stanton.
(even at the beginning of training camp as Stanton knows the offense…lol)
http://twitter.com/#!/rumbulls
I think Avril is going to leave
It is just math… with Calvin Johnsons pay day looming It may be a good time to improve the end rush and replace Avril. It is my opinion that the dream draft would be Merciless at 23…. Bruce Irvin in the 2nd ( the 2 best edge rushers in the draft in my opinion)… these 2 could replace and upgrade the pass rush by miles.
Of course that is a wish list but BPA would be the philosophy i hope they live by.
i think Merciless is a slight reach at 23( as of now... combine could change this)
But I do like him. Irvin will be a LB. He is only 6’2 245lb, and his frame is pretty much filled out.
Charles Aaron "Bubba" Smith 1945 - 2011 R.I.P.
A DE whose last name is Merciless is NEVER a reach!
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by Latif Masud on Jan 26, 2012 10:46 AM EST up reply actions
LOL
I was thinking that this morning. No-Fair and the Merciless One. Has a nice ring to it.
Charles Aaron "Bubba" Smith 1945 - 2011 R.I.P.
The Fairley Merciless Suhnami
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-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 29, 2012 11:05 AM EST up reply actions
i think considering the state of the NFL today players like Irvin as situational pass rushers are more valid considerations
Irvin will be a LB. He is only 6’2 245lb, and his frame is pretty much filled out
See this is where i think we should consider the state of the game now. With a league that is pass first and run 2nd. Where pass rushers are a big need…in the NFC where it is crowded at the quarterback position. If you don’t have pass rushers you can’t beat then your at a disadvantage.
Bruce Irvin doesn’t fit a typical 4-3 system i totally admit that. But this concept is in need of re-evaluation because a player like Irvin (who i believe is the best pass rusher in this draft) would be a impact player. Situational pass rushers aren’t as much of a reach as maybe in years past. And to pass on a guy like this because he is “a linebacker” could be very questionable. Yes you want a guy who has all 3 down utiltiy. But Von Miller showed what he could do as a situational pass rusher on known passing situations and stand up backer on first down. …. even if he just came in as a situational pass rusher he would be worth it because he is flat out unblockable rushing the passer.. i don’t know how i could pass on that just because he doesn’t fit first down DE utility. Heck vs some teams you maybe playing nickle all game long… just seems to me based on the state of the game today and the rule changes in the passing game rushing the passer is a absolute must and can’t have the mindset of "he doesn’t fit the 260 LBS plus range so we can’t use him.
speaking of the state of the game
The NFL is all about trends, and everything comes full circle. I know the media is making it out that this is a passing league now. But it is just in a momentary up swing over the past 6 seasons. In fact if you look at the league average for passing attempts. You would see that the mid 90’s teams were passing more than there are now. In 1995 teams were passing way more than they did this year. Also rushing attempts have been slightly increasing the past 2 seasons.
Charles Aaron "Bubba" Smith 1945 - 2011 R.I.P.
i understand that
but it also has more moving parts involved than just a choice to pass more or pass less. Some of it is rules.. some of it is who is coaching and what assets do they have.. what the talent level is at the quarterback position in the League.. Schedules and match ups.. nothing is explained that easy it really has more moving parts in the equation than that.
The overall them is right now offensive philosophies and tendency lend more too pass oriented attack style offenses. And the two yards and a cloud of dust - balanced teams realize vs the top 4 or 5 offenses in the NFL you need points peroid two score leads aren’t enough. The Bengals the Broncos etc etc they will win alot of regular season games but there just aren’t enough points to advance…and it is worse in the NFC where the quarterback play very balanced with very few easy quarterback match up… infact most are nail bitter type quarterback match ups in the NFC. These teams need points in order to advance… so the passing game trends may have to exist in this conference for a while… where as some AFC teams maybe able to sneak into the playoffs with marginal offensive showings…. move 4 or 5 of these quarterbacks to the AFC and i am sure we could have more 17 to 14 games in the NFC. (unless its Cardinals vs the Seahawks)
How do you expect to improve our pass rush by letting our best pass rusher go?
It is one thing to be optimistic, but expecting a rookie to come in and be better than one of the top ten pass rushers in the NFL is a little ridiculous.
We are picking at # 23. We will probably be getting the third or fourth best DE in the draft. Most DEs take a few years to become very good pass rushers [Cliff’s career is pretty typical as is Lawrence Jackson’s], so it is fair to expect a drop off in our pass rush for 2012. That is not something to plan on when we have to face Rodgers and Cutler twice a year.
"I’m sorry for all the people who want us to run the ball 40 times a game, but we’re going to put the ball in No. 9’s hands and he’s going to make plays for us like he did today," Lions coach Jim Schwartz said. Amen to that Jim!
Have to disagree with one point
Cliff is good but he is not a top ten pass rusher.
We are taught from an early age how to deal with failure not success. (If at first you don't succeed try try again, if at first you succeed then what....) -Charlie Sheen
I come ready, when I came out the womb I was ready, tell them mama that's why you had me, you knew I was ready. -Moss
Dominating your opposition physically is great and all, but confounding them mentally is sooo much more fun.
2-15-DEN 44(14:36) (Shotgun) K.Moreno up the middle to DEN 47 for 3 yards (N.Suh). FUMBLES (N.Suh), RECOVERED by DET-N.Suh at DEN 47. N.Suh to DEN 47 for no gain (K.Moreno). FUMBLES (K.Moreno), recovered by DET-C.Houston at DEN 47. C.Houston to DEN 47 for no gain (O.Franklin). Denver challenged the fumble ruling, and the play was REVERSED. (Shotgun) K.Moreno up the middle to DEN 49 for 5 yards (S.Tulloch).
He was tied for 11th in sacks this year.
ProFootballFocus had him as the eighth or so 4-3 DE on pass rushing.
He finished second in the NFL in forced fumbles, pretty well all of them coming on pass rushes I believe.
There are at least a half dozen guys who are definitely better than Cliff, but after that it is pretty much a coin flip.
As I have said before, these guys don’t grow on trees and generally take time to develop. Seems very foolish to give up a guy just before he starts playing his best football.
"I’m sorry for all the people who want us to run the ball 40 times a game, but we’re going to put the ball in No. 9’s hands and he’s going to make plays for us like he did today," Lions coach Jim Schwartz said. Amen to that Jim!
I am with Northleft here. Keep him
VBosh – paycut.
Playoffs for Christmas!!
by StaffordSuperBowlMVP on Jan 26, 2012 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
plus Lions are trying to win NOW
the future is here… so why have to wait a few years.. Cliff improved each year but took him years to get as good as he is now.
by BillySimsMadeMeDo on Jan 26, 2012 8:37 PM EST up reply actions
Latif
Sorry bro, I think I flagged you by accident. It was an excellent post and I agree with it all.
"I’m not here to meet friends. I’m here to cause you problems and meet your quarterback. I’ll shake his hand when I’m hitting him."
by Rick Chaffee on Jan 26, 2012 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
So what misinformation?
1 I think that you need to re-sign megaT first to know just what you have to spend on Fa’s.
2 4 FA LB’s in the same year is a non issue?
3 A shutdown CB would be great but a better one than what we have will do.
4 Backus is injured and may not return at all is the point I was making and we have no replacement in line.
5 There is no gaurentee that one will sign, I like Hill but he may move on to try and find a starting roll.
I agree with getting rid of Peterman, I said that several times last off season and can’t wait until they do.
1) Contract LEVERAGE. Agent sees team with 25M in cap space versus a team with 12M in cap space. Huge difference in the contract negotiations between those two situations.
2) We had a similar (actually worse) situation last season. This is a year-to-year thing with the Lions and Mayhew. They always have linebacks on short contracts. A lot of teams do. I doubt there are teams that are fawning over Bobby Carpenter or Ashlee Palmer. Even if they are, the Lions can find replacements easily via draft or FA.
3) You have to ask yourself if corner was the issue or the lack of pressure. Lions were only 10th (yes only) in the league in sacks. Freaking teams like the Bengals and Cardinals had more sacks than the Lions, and this was after the fact that the Lions were passed on the 5th most often, which means they had more opportunities for sacks. Plus, you can’t discount the injuries sustained by Delmas and Spievey.
4) Jeff Backus is injured? since when? How many games has he missed in career due to injuries?
5) There is guarantee in anything. It’s all about chances and chances are pretty high that the Lions will manage to find one backup out of the six names mentioned above.
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Agree to disagree on number 1.
I know it was similar LB situation as last year but it would sure be nice to have some of the same ones back.
Yea agree with number 3 on pressure but would still like a better CB.
Schwartz confirmed in a interview to detroitnews com on Jan 9 that Backus had surgery and “will miss a considerable amount of time” and not sure if he will be back for spring training but remained hopefull.
My 2 cents
Calvin is going to be a lion for life! I gladly accept his services. I could care less if avril comes back personally, I think he can be replaced at a much lesser cost. I personally dont think he is worth the big bucks. I know he had a great year but I agree with most here at POD. He see’s so many one on ones all the time and I think a big payday will due the same it does to them all, Lack of production and lots of spending. I was overall extremely disapointed with the play of our front four, Its time to stop talking so much and put it on the field instead.
Moving forward, I believe Mayhew will pull a trade to bring in a stud guard or cb or maybe both. The lions will draft bpa and fill remaining holes via free agency whether we like it or not. Don’t be suprised if we get a slider like last year in the draft but in all honesty I think this is one of the better draft classes in years due to the early commers. I can’t wait til april!
by DieHardFanForever on Jan 25, 2012 3:35 PM EST reply actions
At this point I hope that Calvin is a Lion for life, wouldn’t that be great.
Finding a stud guard would be great to, but better would be a stud RG that could move either to C or LT in the future, especialy if Backus doesn’t return.
Draft wise for OL looking at either Cordy Glenn, Georgia OT/G or Peter Kunz Wisconsin G/C, either one could start at RG and move to other positions when needed.
lol @ we need another qb more then cliff. Get real
RESTORE THE ROAR 2011 DETROIT LIONS <----- best D-line in football
No, we need to sign one of our FA QB’s, thats more important than signing Cliff. We only have one QB on contract right now. Hill and Stanton are FA’s.
So what about punter then?
We don’t have any healthy punters on the roster…
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hill is coming back and im not even considering the possability that he isnt
RESTORE THE ROAR 2011 DETROIT LIONS <----- best D-line in football
Not so sure, I do like him and he’s a tough player but its his last chance as a FA to get a starting job, so we’ll have to wait and see.
Glad to see my FanPost resonated with people
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by Sean Yuille on Jan 25, 2012 4:51 PM EST reply actions 5 recs
I find it pretty amazing that so many are willing to give up on Cliff so quickly.
Here is a guy who has been with the Lions his whole career and has developed into an outstanding pass rushing DE. He is just reaching his best years, and is still our youngest DE to boot.
You guys have no idea how much he may want to stay in Detroit [my guess is we keep him with a four year, $30 Million contract] or how much he may get on the open market. We have no idea how it will be structured, it could be a relatively low CAP hit this year then rising with the expected large increase in the salary CAP in 2013.
With the Lions emphasis on the D Line and on putting pressure on the passer, it seems ludicrous to me that we would show our best pass rusher the door.
By the way, other notable DEs that had a salary of around $7.5 M in 2011; Justin Smith, John Abraham, not to mention a few guys who were $2 M less like Justin Tuck, Trent Cole, and Osi Umenyiora. $7.5 M is just below the top ten salaries of DEs. That seems about right for Cliff’s level of performance. And he still has a ton of upside.
http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/nfl/average/defensive-end/
"I’m sorry for all the people who want us to run the ball 40 times a game, but we’re going to put the ball in No. 9’s hands and he’s going to make plays for us like he did today," Lions coach Jim Schwartz said. Amen to that Jim!
Sorry, way to much
I want to keep Avril but, if you go by snaps, he isn’t better than either Lojack or Young. Avril’s snaps are going to get reduced next year. We certainly can’t pay him 7,5 mil when his snaps are going to be cut by probably a third. 5 mil maybe 6 but beyond that, we shouldn’t go.
The problem is Cliff plays those snaps.
Willie and Lawrence were injured last year without playing anywhere near as much as Cliff. KVB played the whole season, but has a history of missing large chunks of the season. Keeping the number of snaps he plays down through the season will be important for keeping him fresh for the playoffs. This scenario will increase the snaps he will be expected to play, unless Lawrence and Willie play the whole season injury free.
"I’m sorry for all the people who want us to run the ball 40 times a game, but we’re going to put the ball in No. 9’s hands and he’s going to make plays for us like he did today," Lions coach Jim Schwartz said. Amen to that Jim!
Willie?
He didn’t play all that much and he is hardly as good as Avril. LoJack gets about the same amount of pressure, but he isn’t a game changer like Avril. 6 forced fumbles and 2 DTD’s from Avril. Those are things that the Lions will miss even if they can find a sack producer.
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by Latif Masud on Jan 26, 2012 10:48 AM EST up reply actions
I like Willie a lot and think he can develop to be a very good DE.
But we don’t have anyone as quick and as fast as Cliff, and anywhere near as disruptive.
The Lions showed with the selection of Nick Fairley that they value a strong and deep D Line. Letting Cliff go and then trying to replace him with someone in the draft sounds a bit backwards to me, but it is possible.
For the record, I think letting Cliff go in FA would be a big mistake.
"I’m sorry for all the people who want us to run the ball 40 times a game, but we’re going to put the ball in No. 9’s hands and he’s going to make plays for us like he did today," Lions coach Jim Schwartz said. Amen to that Jim!
by NorthLeft12 on Jan 26, 2012 12:56 PM EST up reply actions
It would be a mistake just to let Cliff walk
But if Avril’s asking price reaches over 8 mil per season. Than I would rather the Lions seek out other options.
Charles Aaron "Bubba" Smith 1945 - 2011 R.I.P.
I agree with you NorthLeft (re: not wanting to let Avril go)
I just hope we can do that without breaking the bank, as we have other needs as well. Hopefully KVB will restructure to free some cap space.
Lion fan in the Great Land!
Ah ... kept reading and see below that KVB already restructured ...
Guess that ain’t an option
Lion fan in the Great Land!
I don't know about that
If you give Willie the same amount of snaps as Avril. He would come up with 1 sack less a season. He would have 20 more pressures and 20 more tackles. Avril and Lojack are about even accept that Lojack would have nearly 40 more tackles.
Now this is just goofing around with numbers and circumstance and scheme do have something to do with it.
My point, however, is that these three guys give you a solid young group at DE. They all have their strengths and their weaknesses but altogether they make one heck of a package. You want them all to play about the same amount of snaps. Both Lojack and Willie’s numbers show that they are both ready to take a lot more snaps and continue their developement.
I looked at the stats and even when their healthy they take less snaps than Avril. The numbers I’m looking at suggest this is going to change. If the front office believes, as I do, that the Lions will have a better front four if these guys are given more snaps then they are going to reduce Avril’s snaps. I don’t see the problem. Avril would be making 5 or 6 mill taking far less punishment. We would get a far better rotation in the process.In actuality, If the guy is taking a third less snaps and getting 5 mil, he’s making the same money per snap as 7.5 mil.
On the other side, if he is going to continue taking nearly 900 snaps a season then he should be paid 7 or 8 mil. I just don’t see that as the philosophy of the Lion’s DE rotation. 5 mil with a third less snaps seems right for me.
If Wille really was that good
He would play more. He is just too small at 250 lb to be an every down defensive end. Whatever he might produce in pressure, he would give up in runs.
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by Latif Masud on Jan 27, 2012 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
Willie might be a bit more situational
At 250, he is a bit light in the pants but that’s only 10 lbs less than Avril and weight says nothing about how strong he is plus the wide 9 plays to Willie’s strengths not his weakness.
I think his playing time has been restricted because he still had to show he could learn the game but I think he has shown that and will be given a lot more snaps.
Looking at in on a per snap basis, Willie comes off better against the run than Avril.
Fine to say it would be a big mistake but
would you pay him top 5 DE money to keep him? The issue for me is the ripple effect that doling out to sign him will have on the bottom half of the roster.
The Lions are in a uniquely challenging situation in terms of how much money they have tied up in Suh, Stafford, CJ, and KVB. Both Stafford and KVB already restructured their deals in prior years to help the team with the cap.
The team has about $60 million in cap space to get 49 other players, including Avril, under contract. If the money’s right, I am sure Mayhew would love to sign him long-term. I’d love to see that too. Just not sure it’s possible, knowing that there will be interest in him from a bunch of other teams.
I am still trusting Mayhew with the decision
and keeping players that want to not only be great
but also be part of something great.
by BillySimsMadeMeDo on Jan 26, 2012 8:39 PM EST up reply actions
Mayhew will not overpay for Cliff.
And he will work out the contract situation so that the Lions will not be hamstrung by the previous big contracts.
Cliff is very unlikely to be offered top 5 DE money. FYI here are the top six CAP hits for DEs in 2011:
D. Freeney Colts $16,420K
M. Williams Texans $15,150K
E. Dumervill Broncos $14,500K
J. Peppers Bears $13,833K
P. Soliai Dolphins $12,382K
J. Allen Vikings $11,563K
LINK: http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/nfl/cap-hit/defensive-end/
Cliff does not deserve to be up with that group, and there is no way he gets it. By the way, KVB is twelfth on that list around $8,000K. IMO, Cliff deserves a contract around that value.
"I’m sorry for all the people who want us to run the ball 40 times a game, but we’re going to put the ball in No. 9’s hands and he’s going to make plays for us like he did today," Lions coach Jim Schwartz said. Amen to that Jim!
KVB re-structured his contract
that info is a bit old. He will make 5 mil in each of the next 2 seasons, than be a FA in 2014.
Charles Aaron "Bubba" Smith 1945 - 2011 R.I.P.
No JC that is up to date. I listed the CAP hit numbers, not his salary.
If you go to the link I provided and check the Base Salary, it lists KVB at $4.5M. The CAP hit must include his bonus that has been spread out over a few years.
"I’m sorry for all the people who want us to run the ball 40 times a game, but we’re going to put the ball in No. 9’s hands and he’s going to make plays for us like he did today," Lions coach Jim Schwartz said. Amen to that Jim!
How about this?
Say we give Avril a 5 mil a year deal but cut his snaps to 600 and then, just to be fair, make his contract pay 1 mi for every 100 snaps over 600. If he did 800 snaps, he’d get 7 mil, at 900 snaps he’d get 8 mil. I’m guessing that 8 mil is what he’s looking for but if the Lions are going to reduce his snaps then he should expect less pay but commiserate salary.
He would basically be making 8,333 bucks a snap and it would go up to about 10,000 a snap. That’s good money, on par with the top ten and, I think, fair. If he works more give him more money.
That makes sense to me, not sure if it will to Cliff or the Lions.
I don’t know what “rules” there are regarding bonuses in the NFL, but tying a bonus to actual amount of time played seems very fair.
I agree with a lot of what has been said about Cliff, the D Line rotation, and the Lions pay structure in the above thread and I hope they work out a deal that works for both sides. Personally, the guy who should be losing snaps to Lawrence and Willie is KVB more than Cliff.
"I’m sorry for all the people who want us to run the ball 40 times a game, but we’re going to put the ball in No. 9’s hands and he’s going to make plays for us like he did today," Lions coach Jim Schwartz said. Amen to that Jim!
Makes no sense in terms of contract negotiations
It makes sense from a team perspective, but imagine your boss coming up to you and saying that they wanna pay you based on your performance instead of an actual salary. You’d be pissed. It’s not the way it works. Contracts are based on performance versus what the market is willing to pay for that type of performance. Because it’s a shallow market for DE’s, Avril will end up getting overpaid. Remember when the Lions signed Dwayne White to a big ass contract just because he was one of the best out there? It will be the same situation except Avril is a far better producer.
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by Latif Masud on Jan 27, 2012 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
Get what you're saying but look at it this way.
Last year I took a six month contract. I worked long funky hours and I was free by summer. My time was shortened but I didn’t have to toil under really bad conditions for that long.
Avril would be getting a base salary that would be on par with a 7.5 mil contract. (8.3 K per snap) The expectation would be that he would take a lot less punishment with a lot less snaps. The bonus would come at above 600 snaps at basically 10K per snap. I don’t think I’d be too pissed about that. This contract doesn’t say anything about what he does on those snaps. He just gets paid for more work. Most jobs, the workload goes up but not the pay.
Yes, there is the market but is the extra money going to be worth the pain. There are some jobs I won’t work, I don’t care what they’re paying. He gets a certain amount of protection playing next to Suh. He won’t have that probably on another team. He can expect far more chips and double teams with maybe little chance of seeing the playoffs.
I understand that this is a brutal sport and you do have to make hay when the sun shines but how much hay does he need and what is he going to be willing to suffer to get it?
I think that would work if
there wasn’t a huge market for him.
He is going to be the most sought after pass rusher in FA. He is going to get more than Charles Johnson from last year (6yr/72Mill/30M Sigining bonus).
Mario Williams is going to be a Free Agent too.
As well as John Abraham of the Falcons. Mario will be the # 1 target for a long term contract, while I like Abraham for a team looking for a short term fix.
"I’m sorry for all the people who want us to run the ball 40 times a game, but we’re going to put the ball in No. 9’s hands and he’s going to make plays for us like he did today," Lions coach Jim Schwartz said. Amen to that Jim!
by NorthLeft12 on Jan 27, 2012 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
Totally my bad
totally forgot about Mario.
Pretty sure teams will rank Avril over John since Cliff is 25.
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