time for a new defensive co-ordinator???
by dew1966 on Jan 8, 2012 6:09 AM EST
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Printis it just me or has gunther cunningham's time come to move along? way too many points have been given up. not 1 punt in NO game by NO!! couldn't get off field. gunny was great in his day but the times they are a-changing. i think we need new blood and creative thinking to keep pace. offense looks great (still need a couple of o-linemen) and with a running game next year who knows? to be a SB contender we need at least a top 15 ranked defense in my opinion.
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Again a over reaction
The only D-cord I would want over Gunny is the former Rams coach that was just fired, remember the Saints went for it 3 times on 4th down. 3 TIMES, there’s just no game planning for that…
game planning?
The Saints knew we were not going to stop them. Maybe once on 3rd down to force the 4th down but definitely not on fourth and short when our run defense is assed up.
There is not a D-Cord in the world
That can overcome dropped interceptions, players being out of position, and refs whistles. What is Gunny supposed to do? Go out on the field and tell the safety to make sure he lines up across from the TE that is out to the right? Catch the interception that hit you in the bread basket? Make sure you wrap up when you hit the RB?
This is clearly a case of not having the personnel you need on defense to win against the better teams in the NFL. Our Offense is there, minus a running game. Our Defense lacks players, it’s a simple as that.
The Lions defense was too predictable.
They only rushed the front four almost the whole game.Brees had all day to pick the lions apart.If you ever watch the Steelers play they always biltz a saftey,corner or linebacker.You have to hit the quarterback and make the offensive line change there blocking scheme.
That is not Gunther Cunningham's fault...
The lack of blitzing is a feature of the Jim Schwartz defensive philosophy. If you watched Gunther Cunningham through his tenure in the NFL you would see he loves to blitz. But he is running the defense the way that Jim Schwartz wants it to be run. So if you want to fire somebody over that, then you are pointing to the wrong guy.
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One more point...
The Steelers play a 3-4 defense. By definition you always blitz somebody when you play a 3-4 scheme. The Lions play a 4-3 so they cannot blitz without taking a risk.
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Yes that is exactly what a D-Coord is supposed to do.
What kind of idiot statement is that?
Teach the players to make sure they hold onto balls and not look downfield. Teach the players where they need to line up. Teach the players the basics of wrapping up while tackling.
Amazing how a team like the Steelers or Ravens can plug anyone into their lineup and not miss a beat isn’t it.
No, that is NOT what a D-coordinator does.
Teaching proper technique is the responsibility of the POSITION coaches, not the defensive coordinator.
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I'm with Icantrix
It absolutely is the d-coordinator’s job to ensure that the players are properly coached on fundamentals like tackling and catching gift wrapped picks, and even if you don’t agree about that, how can someone say he isn’t responsible for players knowing where to line up?
Gunther is in charge of the defense, and when the Lions played their two most important games in the past decade at least, his D gave the games away.
True but this is the NFL and players should know how to tackle...
well minus corners… but the front 7 tackled like a bunch of girls that just got there nails done. Must corners cant catch and thats why they are cb and not wr… Wright i can excuse because the wr did punch the ball away at the last second, Berry should of had the one in the endzone the other one kinda shows why he is a cb.
Gun cant line the guys up and really shouldnt have too…it was a poor outing by the D for the second straight week.
" Maybe for a writer...but i am sure most of you can tell i am not a writer". det32
Once again...tackling is position coach
The D coordinator’s job is to game plan for the other team and put his players in position to stop them….after that it’s up to the player to make the tackle, make the pick, deflect the ball etc…which are fundamentals that the position coach is supposed to make sure they are up to snuff on.
As far as being in position on the field….that falls on the “QB of the Defense” Generally a Safety is responsible for the back 4 (or more depending on the package) and the Middle LB is usually the one that makes sure the LBs and Dline are set up correctly.
If the d coordinator called a TO everytime somebody was out of position, he’d probably have to call one on just about every play (at least in the last game).
LITTLE MAN IN BACKFIELD! LITTLE MAN IN BACKFIELD! GO STEFAN LOGAN!
Ultimate responsibility rolls up to d-coordinator
If the position coaches aren’t getting it done, he needs to fix that problem, by replacing the coaches or doing it himself. Whether that’s with tackling, positioning, hands, etc.
Regardless of where "ultimate" responsibility lies...
You do not shoot the owner of a dog because his pet makes a mess on the rug. You either teach the pet or you get rid of it. If the position coaches are not doing their job, then we need to replace the position coaches, not the d-coordinator. Deal with the problem where it lies.
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Oh, and you are wrong, by the way.
Ultimate responsibility for coaching lies with Jim Schwartz. So if we are going to take your approach then he is the guy that must be fired. If you are going to start running roughshod then you might as well go all the way.
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Well the dog's owner here is the Fords
and Gunther is the dog who cannot control his puppies or his own bladder. Ultimate responsibility for the team is Schwartz, but the defense is Gunther’s, and that’s the part of the team shitting the bed right now. The problem lies with Gunther’s defense – either the players who he brings in cannot play, or the coaches he brings in cannot coach. So yeah, GC is the problem. What he put together isn’t working.
The Fords own the team. Schwartz is the CEO. GC is a divisional president. His division is sucking it up. The CEO needs to overhaul that division, or the owners will overhaul his.
I doubt you have any clue what a Gunther Cunningham defense actually looks like.
Go back and watch him with Kansas City when he was head coach and DC. You will see that what the Lions play is not even close to a Gunther Cunningham defense. Once again, for the zillionth time. The Lions are not playing Gunny’s defense, they are play Schwartz’s defense and Gunny is just implementing it for him.
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Plus one
The DCs job is to gameplan and make adjustments during the game and on the fly. It is becoming alarmingly clear that Gun is struggling or incapable to make any kind of effective gametime changes against elite offenses. Several times throughout the year, particularly in the last two games, it cost us big and made us look like f’n chumps. Sure, the tackling sucked huge hairy ass (I’m over Levy, Delmasi is way overated imo, Avril was quiet, even Suh and Tulloch let me down), but essentially I dont think Gun is putting us in the best position to be successful and at this point I’m not buying the whole “we don’t have the talent” argument. That excuse expired already so I dont want to hear it.
by HonoluluBlues on Jan 9, 2012 2:48 AM EST up reply actions
OK, how much of a factor did our injuries in the secondary play?
You do realize that Wright, Houston, Berry, Spievey, and Delmas have all been playing hurt, or out, for several game snow?
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by TuffLynx on Jan 9, 2012 10:37 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Everyone has injuries
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I think TL means if you look at where we got burned
much of it was due to bad play by a decimated secondary.
I don’t know how many other teams had guys that important to them out or injured like Detroit did, and that counts for something.
That goddamn Okra and beans got you Oprah in jeans. Seems to me a little lean cuisine, wouldn't hurt much- Agh don't touch! -Obie Trice
I just do not buy it man
That might be good enough for these part time fans in Chicago but I do not buy it. Those injuries covered the entire second half of the season when we averaged almost 32 points a game given up?
Just not buying it.
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"You can get a win with undisciplined jack asses, you create a winning team with discipline and poise." by Leonuro
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GROW THE F UP
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Wel that's OK...
I don’t buy that Gunther Cunningham is the problem on defense either. To each their own.
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I completely agree
Gunny is not the problem. This is not his system.
I can’t remember a single year he was coaching that was like this. So passive, conservative. He is a blitzing angry coach who likes an angry defense.
I do not buy for a minute that this is his system.
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"You can get a win with undisciplined jack asses, you create a winning team with discipline and poise." by Leonuro
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GROW THE F UP
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"Some people mistake the way I talk for the way I am thinking."
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Dude why to you think there are so many coaches on the team...
there is a coach for every position on the field, this isnt youth football.
" Maybe for a writer...but i am sure most of you can tell i am not a writer". det32
My youth football team had 10 coaches
The second QB coach found work as a referee in our league. He stayed on the coaching staff (games were a bit dicey). So if the Lions keep Gunny, they should get him in a zebra outfit too.
We have our man. It's Stafford. It's Suh. It's Calvin. It's Delmas. What we need is Man Number Two to stand up.
by halfbackattack33 on Jan 8, 2012 1:10 PM EST up reply actions
Well, I guess you haven't played football before then
Maybe the coordinator is more responsible for running the practices, but only when the team is going through the playbook and learning what responsibilities each player has. There is only one defensive coordinator for the entire team. He does not have the time to spend teaching fundamentals to every player on the defense. If he tried to do that then he wouldn’t have time to adjust scheme, scout opponents, or develop new wrinkles in the playbook.
It is simply a fact that the defensive coordinator leaves the majority of technique development to position coaches. That is because the particular skills and techniques required are different for each position.
You need to get off your soapbox and learn that some people here may actually know what they are talking about. Your rant is making you look more stupid by the minute.
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I like all the personal attacks you're tossing in
Very classy & grown up. The personnel the DC has brought in, both players & coaches, aren’t getting it done. He made this swiss cheese of a defense. He needs to go and a new DC needs to be brought in. 90 points in the two most important games in the past 15 years of this franchise is abysmal. The offense did its job, not GC
Exactly
90 points is inexcusable for any professional Defensiver Coordinator in the NFL. Our Dline looked incredibly underwhelming for all the talk it recieved early, Tulloch the tackling machine (140 or so last year) looked very ehh, and this safety delmas I’m ready to trade. Everyone talks about his intangibles and leadership, but we conveniently ignore his durability issues and his piss poor tackling. Yes I said it. He’s a hitter, at this point we needed a tackler instead if we want to progress. In addition, get rid of Levy. This guy is terrible at wrapping up the carrier, just terrible!
by HonoluluBlues on Jan 9, 2012 2:59 AM EST up reply actions
Great call on Delmas
Yeah the guy is intense, and when he can line someone up, is able to deliver the blow-up tackle. But at the same time, he seems to whiff often on plays that he has to make, because he’s trying to bring the hammer & not fundamentals. Not to mention, his coverage skills are questionable, and he has a long history of serious injury.
I think Delmas would fit in well on an established D where he is a second stringer & only comes in for certain packages. I think he’s made the last two Pro Bowls on rep & hitting highlight videos alone, because he sure doesn’t pass the eye test for people like us who watch every game & his glaring mistakes.
Look, I just get sick of all the sour grapes after everything the Lions accomplished.
The facts are that you guys bitching right now hardly ever post here. Now you complain after the Lions accomplished more than almost anybody expected them to this season. You should be ashamed to come here and post that crap. It is a disgrace that a human being can be that much of a whiney bitch.
The defense is NOT Gunther Cunningham’s defense. Gunther is sitting in a seat and implementing Jim Schwartz’s defense. If you botheres to take a look at past defenses that Gunny has implemented you would find out several things:
First, Gunny loves to scheme defense and throw a variety of blitzes to confuse the other team. The lack of blitzing, and blitz competent personnel on defense is part of the Jim Schwartz defensive philosophy, not the Gunther Cinnuingham defensive philosophy. Once again, you are bitching about THE WRONG GUY!
I would be OK if the people posting all this tripe actually knew what they are talking about but frankly, you don’t. You are just mad because the Lions lost and you want to lash out. Well screw that! If you want to make complaints bring real facts not a lot of emo bullshit.
Maybe one of you geniuses can explain to me what the caoches were supposed to do when the top three cornerbacks and three safeties were all hurt for most of the second half of the season. You want to bitch. but you don’t listen to the real facts.
Explain to me how Eric Wright was supposed to play All-Pro caliber defense when he was pressed into playing with a bad groin simply because the Lions needed somebody to play.
Explain to me how Louis Delmas was expected to come back an play at mid-season form when he just missed five games because of surgery on a torn MCL.
Explain to me why Chris Harris, Aaron Berry, Louis Delmas, Chris Houston, and Alphonso Smith all missed time in practice this week because of injures, yet you feel they should all be playing like pro bowlers.
Go ahead, impart your wisdom upon me about how this team was expected to do some much more this season than they did.
I really want to hear this.
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by TuffLynx on Jan 9, 2012 11:03 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You're right about Schwartz's D but wrong
about Gunther. He calls the plays not Jim. Yes, he is running the system Jim wants to, but he doesnt have to. He can dial up blitzes and run plays he wants. He can do some in game adjusting.
And then he would be looking for work in the offseason, like Mike Martz does every year. Unless it worked of course.
Actually, he can't.
Jim Schwartz said in an interview after last season that he does not like to blitz in a 4-3 defense and that when you do blitz, you take a risk by opening up areas of the field for the receivers to get open. If you have watched the past couple of weeks then you would realize that when the Lions do blitz, the get burned more often than not.
Maybe you want more blitzes, but you apparently do not really understand what has been happening when we do blitz. We don’t need more blitzing, we need the defensive line to earn their money.
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Actually he can
How many times did the Lions blitz vs NO? Should our front four being able to get pressure-yes, but it wasnt working. Brees had all day to throw, except the one fumble.
I guess I’m upset because the reality of the situation was NO was moving the ball with ease in the first half. Our D did not stop them, they shot themselves in the foot. Now NO moves the ball at ease on every possession in the 2nd half with no adjustments. What is the defintion of insanity-doing the samething over and over with the expectations of a different result.
To me, not making adjustments pisses me off-both offensively and defensively. I would give more credit to the Lions losing if they blitzed this last game and got burnt by great plays. But rushing 4 and not getting to the QB over and over again is perplexing.
it is typical Schwartz football
passive and conservative.
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"You can get a win with undisciplined jack asses, you create a winning team with discipline and poise." by Leonuro
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GROW THE F UP
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"Some people mistake the way I talk for the way I am thinking."
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So you are saying...
that you recognize that the Lions personnel is not good at blitzing and they get burned when they do it, then you say they don’t blitz enough?
When are some of you guys just going to realize that New Orleans has made a lot of teams and some pretty good defenses look bad the last few seasons? Maybe at some point you just have to realize that the other team may also be pretty good and you can’t toss out the baby with the bath water just because you are upset we lost.
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When you have an isolated game
Say, like the one where a Back up QB looked all pro against us. You can brush off one game.
When you have back to back games, like the one mentioned above and then our playoff game. Where the other team set an all time playoff record for yards with 5 TDs in the second half.
You take those two games and then look at our defense and realize we didn’t try anything different either week?
Or either half for that matter?
SMFH
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"You can get a win with undisciplined jack asses, you create a winning team with discipline and poise." by Leonuro
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GROW THE F UP
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"Some people mistake the way I talk for the way I am thinking."
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Harris, Berry, and Smith will never play like pro bowlers
.Because they aren’t nearly talented enough to do so. I’d say the same about Delmas, but somehow, he’s been selected an alternate twice. IMO, Houston is the best of the bunch, and has the best shot at a long term career.
However, we all know that you cannot equate a pro-bowl selection with on the field greatness – just look at how our own Matt Stafford was treated in that regards this season. Would I take Eli or Romo ahead of Stafford, right now? Hell, no. But apparently the NFC would.
Injuries suck, but they’re part of the game. Every single team has injured starters at this point of the season. If the Lions had depth they would be able to plug other players in, but they don’t, so apparently we’re better off playing the hobbled than the backups. Which says a lot about the D that Gunny built.
Also, teams have figured out that the Lions secondary isn’t that good, and was made to look a lot better than it really is, early in the season by the D-line. Once teams figured out how to minimize Suh’s impact, our defensive secondary was exposed. I thought NO did a great job of using the d-line’s aggressiveness against them on Sat.
Nobody said the Lions didn’t have a great regular season. They did. People are saying that, if the Lions are to continue moving up the NFC food chain, the changes that need to be made are in the overall defensive scheme, as well as the back 7. Our QB, WR, & TE situations are set, hopefully Leshoure will be the real deal at RB (I think Best is done), and hopefully, our O-line issues, specifically Backus’s inconsistent play, can be addressed.
We all love the Lions and that’s why we come here & are passionate about them. We want them to succeed. The strong parts of the team are obvious, and we all have different solutions to the obvious weaknesses, which is the back 7 & specifically the back 4.
OK, so if you boil all that down...
You have arrived at some of the same conclusions that I have, so w have some common ground.
The personnel on defense needs to get better.. You point out the back seven, but I do not spare the defensive line either.
I feel the defensive line is not making enough impact for the amount that the Lions have invested into it. This is probably a coaching issue, and we may need to replace Kocurek. There is too much talent on the defensive line for them to disappear the way they do. They also suck against the run for the most part.
While I understand you point about the secondary, my point is that they were very hurt. Yes, every team has injuries. But I do not think any team had to face the Packers and Saints on consecutive weeks, two of the most prolific offenses in NFL history, with almost EVERYBODY in the secondary hurt. You have to know that made a big difference. The Lions secondary played much better early in the season when they were healthy.
Yes, the Lions had a great season. That is why I don’t understand people talking firing coordinators. That is what you do when the team does not play up to expectations, not when they surpass them. The largest single reason that I am being so confrontational with you about this is that you are talking about somebodies job here. Have you lost sight of that? You are awfully cavalier with the life of another person. Frankly, too many people are much to damned quick to start calling for people to get fired. Get some perspective and come back.
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OK, so now you are blaming Gunny for the players that Martin Mayhew got.
Wow, I guess Gunther Cunningham has quietly been the mastermind behind everything.
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Call me C-R-A-Z-Y...
if you must, but as i recall the plug anyone into their lineup and not miss a beat Steelers got beatbowed by Tebow.
I think the lesson there is,
That stuff may work in the regular season, but not as much in the playoffs against better teams.
Really??
Let’s not get too far ahead of ourselves here. I’ll be the first one to say that watching that game last night hurt. It hurt to watch our defence give up yards and first downs seemingly at will. Drew Brees was surgical, but completely took advantage of our mis-cues. I agree with NCBUR10… We just don’t have the personel to stop a GREAT offense like that on a consistent basis. The tackling yesterday was atrocious…. it was painful to watch our players bounce off their runners time after time. The front four were not the problem… they actually managed to put decent pressure on brees from time to time considering he is standing behind the best offensive line in the league. They have THREE PROBOWLERS!!!!!!!!! A new scheme and philosophy isn’t going to fix this defense… but some better players will. I love this team and think we are at the beginning of a GREAT era… but this is still the beginning… and there was a lesson learned last night… were not there…. YET.
Better players eh?
How well did our DLine play last year? It played great, our LB’s sucked, our secondary was average.
We sign the best available MLB (Tulloch) and another very decent OLB (Durant), another very decent CB (Wright). Looks good to me so far. We don’t have the injuries we had last year. Again sounds great.
So the difference this year was? In your opinion suddenly everyone sucks again and needs to be replaced? Sorry, but your not finding a better pair of LB replacements for Tulloch and Durant.
Your arguement that Brees was surgical is also laughable considering your short term memory is failing. Apparently then Flynn for Green Bay is also a future Hall of Famer, since he also just lit the Lion’s up for a GB franchise record in passing while missing a key reciever and having a lackluster OLine.
Most players are made by the system a team runs, not too often are they the bright spots above and beyond. They have THREE PROBOWLERS!!!!!!!!!!! simply because their QB wins them games. Ours did and would have won more had we played to the strengths of our defense and not ran some absurd and ineffective scheme that worked no better for us than it did for Philadelphia who BTW has 3 very good CBS.
Our secondary was injured most of the season.
Eric Wright has been playing with a bad groin since the sixth or seventh game. Chris Houston did not play much in the last several games because of his injury. This was the first game back for Delmas after missing five games from MCL surgery. Aaron Berry also missed several games from injury.
When we are left to depend on Alphonzo Smith to play outside corner we are in bad shape. There is a reason he did not see the field for so long this season. The guy can’t cover. He is a one tricks play that is in trouble if he can’t hump routes. Believe me, Phonz doesn’t even see the field if our top four corners are healthy.
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BTW, I agree about the "wide nine" scheme.
I really do not like it at all.
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wide 9 sux
what about a 5-2? wouldn’t that be better against the run and get better pressure on qb? of course you need cb’s that can cover 1on1. what about moving players like suh and avril around from time to time? take the offense out of their preparations. what about 3-4 and 4-3 and 5-2 mixed in? o-lines what know what tp prepare for. or is that too much to learn or remember? just wondering. this league is pass heavy
Lions need one shut down corner
having two average corners kills the safety play.
I like Gunny a lot and he will be back
However, there a various scheme things that need to be changed or atleast looked at including the wide-9.
On a different note, my opinion of Eric Wright has changed a lot the last few games and I don’t know if he will be back. Any thoughts on that?
Datsyukian Deke, Detroit Red Wings Blog
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I dont know
but untill Staff threw that Home run ball INT we were in this game. After that miscue it was all down hill from there. Before the game started there was 2 players i was worried about Sproles and Meachem and those were the 2 that killed us. Im not sure what the fuck happened in the 4th quarter but it wasnt good. Thanks for the best season in a very long long time lions
No Blame can be put on Staff
If your defense can’t get the opposition to punt ONCE then you can’t win the game. Also if im not mistaken, the Saints scored on every drive except the last one in the 2nd Half. Thats just terrible.
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Im not Blaming Staff
I was just pointing out when i saw a big change in how the games momentum was changed
Off Topic I know
But Cliff Avril just tweeted this:
Everyone is asking me do I want to be in Detroit… Yes I’d love to be here but it’s not in my hands it’s up to them, if they want me
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We will have to pay him to keep him, doubt we're getting a discount.
Who is the only Maniac to appear in every mmamania fantasy football league superbowl in league history?
by DetroitDrew1980 on Jan 8, 2012 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
Rather have C-Will than Avril back.
President of the Eric Wright fan club, but I love me some Aaron Berry.
Obligatory statement about being a huge Lions fan.
I have a twitter: Follow Me
I don't want to lose either, we'll see how finances dictate. We may actually be a destination thats desirable for free agents.
Who is the only Maniac to appear in every mmamania fantasy football league superbowl in league history?
by DetroitDrew1980 on Jan 8, 2012 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
I like CWill
but his performance has been down this year, other than he stopped jumping off side and giving up first downs like last year. I think he’s expendable and should be packaged for an upgrade at DE, CB or G.
I’d rather draft a DE, than break the bank on Avril who, imo, is a class B defensive end in Det. He’s not elite and does not deserve elite money.
The only guy that we should focus on locking in is Jim Shcwartz, Megatron obviously and Tulloch unless he is asking too much. Wright, WIlliams and Avril I think are expendable especially if we can draft to fill their spot
by HonoluluBlues on Jan 9, 2012 3:06 AM EST up reply actions
We need to restructure
CWill’s and KVB’s Contracts. Too High Caps(According to Madden Atleast). I want both back.
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Dont forget Suh's
cap hit goes up 7Mill this year. I see CWill as the odd man out.
Eh...
We have Suh, Fairley and SLH at DT, and all of them are 25 or younger. I’d rather have Avril back, honestly.
Not saying I don't love C-Will
but the dude is on the wrong side of 30. The three good years he could give us aren’t worth as much as the eight good years Cliff could give us.
by motown313 on Jan 8, 2012 4:48 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Williams is by far our best run stuffer
Without him, we’re even worse than dead last in run defense. No thanks.
President of the Eric Wright fan club, but I love me some Aaron Berry.
Obligatory statement about being a huge Lions fan.
I have a twitter: Follow Me
and he is by far
our Best screen sniffing D lineman.
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"You can get a win with undisciplined jack asses, you create a winning team with discipline and poise." by Leonuro
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
GROW THE F UP
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"Some people mistake the way I talk for the way I am thinking."
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Yup.
Without him, I don’t wanna think about how bad we could be on that line.
President of the Eric Wright fan club, but I love me some Aaron Berry.
Obligatory statement about being a huge Lions fan.
I have a twitter: Follow Me
Shit like this is why they're always scheming to shave a mil off here and there.
they’re gonna have to get creative this off-season.
That goddamn Okra and beans got you Oprah in jeans. Seems to me a little lean cuisine, wouldn't hurt much- Agh don't touch! -Obie Trice
The defense is flawed, but it's not Gunny's problem
Detroit has slowly worked their way back from having some of the worst defensive back depth charts in history the past few years to having a semi-capable unit this year that didn’t stand a chance against an offense as good as Green Bay or New Orleans.
Delmas needs to get healthy and Spievey needs to step his game up. Both had awful games yesterday, and in addition to the Lions getting no pressure they gave their cornerbacks no chance to cover anyone successfully.
It’ll be interesting to see what happens in this offseason. Personally, I think priority #1 will be to pay Cliff Avril like the Pro Bowler that he is, and minimize KVB’s role with the team as the ugly truth is he’s been by far the most overrated player on the Lions defense(with Delmas running a close second, but he’s had injury issues). Replacing Eric Wright has to be a given, but other than that – the Lions just need to stick to their guns and hope these guys keep improving.
The Lions had 7 return touchdowns, a ton of sacks, and plenty of young guys like WIllie Young and Aaron Berry strutting their stuff all season long. Finding a schematic advantage with a new D coordinator wont happen, and quite frankly isn’t all that necessary – none of the 3 most favored teams to win the Super Bowl(NO, GB, and NE) have anything resembling good defenses. We’re fine with Gunther, he didn’t cost us anything with his playcalling.
by Hussein Beydoun on Jan 8, 2012 12:11 PM EST reply actions
Well thought out post and I tend to agree with most of it...
but I do think the wide 9 seems to be either overrated and/or not right for our personnel.
For example, I seemed to noticed more often then not that our DTs continued to get smashed together. Not just in last nights game but throughout the season after San Fran beat us. This seemed to take Suh and others out of the play and QBs could just step up and either left or right and have a clear passing lane. Or teams would run through the huge lanes.
Anyway, I don’t think we need to make major changes, but It would be nice to add a few more wrinkles to the scheme that can help us change the pace when things don’t seem to be working. Pride seems to be getting in the way some times (no pun intended) and we stick to a gameplan that isn’t working.
We’ve come a long way and have a bright future. It’s not time to panic. Our time will come.
But, now it’s time to start mocking it up and dreaming about next year!
Go LIONS!!!!
Almost there...
Mike Adams
Vontaze Burfict
Michael Brewster
David Molk
The Eagles tried to run the Wide 9 this year as well and from what I've seen it didn't go well for them either.
Any other teams run it?
Actually it worked great for them
They got an insane amount of pressure on the QB and didn’t give up a ton of yards after they played together for a while. Their LB’s sucked and that was the flaw in their D.
People forget that we don’t have a Trent Cole or Jason Babin as our Franchise DE. None of our DE’s can take over a game especially if we are going against a team like the Saints with two GREAT guards. Imagine our D-Line with a Julius Peppers. We would be unstoppable.
We are taught from an early age how to deal with failure not success. (If at first you don't succeed try try again, if at first you succeed then what....) -Charlie Sheen
I come ready, when I came out the womb I was ready, tell them mama that's why you had me, you knew I was ready. -Moss
Dominating your opposition physically is great and all, but confounding them mentally is sooo much more fun.
2-15-DEN 44(14:36) (Shotgun) K.Moreno up the middle to DEN 47 for 3 yards (N.Suh). FUMBLES (N.Suh), RECOVERED by DET-N.Suh at DEN 47. N.Suh to DEN 47 for no gain (K.Moreno). FUMBLES (K.Moreno), recovered by DET-C.Houston at DEN 47. C.Houston to DEN 47 for no gain (O.Franklin). Denver challenged the fumble ruling, and the play was REVERSED. (Shotgun) K.Moreno up the middle to DEN 49 for 5 yards (S.Tulloch).
He kept sending the blitz at the worst time all year
RESTORE THE ROAR 2011 DETROIT LIONS <----- best D-line in football
He didnt blitz at all last night
So thats obviously not the issue.
I hate the wide 9 BUT
Its not the D.C.’s fault the defense couldnt take anyone. It was horrible.
Here is the thing you have to ask yourself. Who is better that is out there? Spags? Hell yeah, can’t see to many others.
Predictable
Nothing more needs to be said about our defense. Predictable.
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"You can get a win with undisciplined jack asses, you create a winning team with discipline and poise." by Leonuro
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GROW THE F UP
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"Some people mistake the way I talk for the way I am thinking."
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I didn't have a problem with the Defensive plan...
We wanted to challenge NO’s passing game, at the expense of giving them some running room. And for the first half, we did a damn fine job!
The problem is we rush our 4 DL’s, and drop our LB’s into zone coverage. So on a run, those LB’s are already 5 yds back from the LOS, or more. They have to fly up to the hole to make a tackle, and it’s often a hit or miss.
My only critique is that Schwartz likes big physical LB’s…wouldn’t speedy LB’s be better suited for this?
Of course, our secondary is weak. We really need to get a superstar or two back there. Our Front Office knows this, as they made a play for Patrick Peterson last year on draft day, but couldnt get him. Delmas is way to hungry to run up and hit someone…he needs to play pass first. Spivey is average. Wright sucks.
Keep Avril, draft CB’s and LB’s, and OL depth. Everything is going to plan on our rebuilding from 0-16 to now. No worries!
Just livin' the dream...
Cunningham Needs to Go...
Yes, time for a change….When you get lit up by Matt Flynn and a Vikings 3rd string quarterback regardless of injuries it is time to go with a new D Coordinator. Pundits were laughingly defending the 11 point spread as though we were a joke and it made me upset. Now I know why they were laughing. The joke was on us fans. We couldn’t see the truth about our D through our honolulu blue glasses. Time for a change or for Schwartz to take the D over. If the scheme is Schwartz’s plan, then he must get a new coordinator and stand back…… The last two games were a total embarrassment….
Personally I think Gunther is handcuffed
From what I remember of his defenses of the past they were all 3-4 blitz schemes. He never ran the wide 9 before he came here, and now all of the sudden he is doing that?
Nah this is a Jim Schwartz defense, not a Gunther Cunningham defense. Yes this is the scheme that failed to stop the greatest show on turf, the scheme that failed to get the talent laden Eagles to the playoffs, the scheme that was part of making the Titans the little brother of the AFC South to the Colts for years.
I cannot blame Gunny on this one, if only Schwartz would take his hands off the reigns and actually have a real defensive coordinator then maybe we could get a real defense here. I will give them one more year to develop it, but honestly, its looking like a perfume wrapped turd to me.
Ndamukong Suh - Bringing 50's football back to Motown!
We agree on something
How the hell did that happen?
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"You can get a win with undisciplined jack asses, you create a winning team with discipline and poise." by Leonuro
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GROW THE F UP
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"Some people mistake the way I talk for the way I am thinking."
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LoL I am not always sunshine and roses, so I guess we agree on this
For the most part I love Jim Schwartz and Martin Mayhew, but they are not perfect, and they are not my savior and Jesus Christ, and I sure will give criticism when I feel it is valid.
Ndamukong Suh - Bringing 50's football back to Motown!
yes....YES
I am not always sunshine and roses
Let the anger flow through you
It's turkey, Lions and Macy's. Any other combination is just ludicrous.
Twitter is for pussies. I follow people in real life.
"Ambition is a poor excuse for not having sense enough to be lazy." - Charlie McCarthy
Goooood
Goooooooooooooooooooooooood
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"You can get a win with undisciplined jack asses, you create a winning team with discipline and poise." by Leonuro
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GROW THE F UP
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"Some people mistake the way I talk for the way I am thinking."
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I think you're mostly right
Now I could have sworn I caught Gunny talking about a certain amount of what they’re doing as coming from Kocurek. Beyond that tho, I think it’s more of execution issues than it is schema.
Individuals should protect themselves. Governments can't protect individuals from themselves, it's just impossible, otherwise they become a tyranical state. -Ron Paul
I think they will have a defense ranked at minimum from 14-18 next year if our guys continue to develop
That is without adding anyone, just developing what we have. Well without adding any starters. I would like to see us add a corner, safety, and DE/DT hybrid. I have my eye on the kid from SC, Melvin Ingram. Adding a piece like him to our line rotation would be really nice. I believe he could possibly replace a starter by the end of his rookie year. As for the corners and safeties I have not looked too much into those yet.
Ndamukong Suh - Bringing 50's football back to Motown!
Mid to early 20s just like our last two seasons.
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"You can get a win with undisciplined jack asses, you create a winning team with discipline and poise." by Leonuro
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GROW THE F UP
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"Some people mistake the way I talk for the way I am thinking."
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It's funny- the entire first half of the season it was
where’s the fucking offense. The D is keeping us in these games.
now, it’s like
where’s the fucking defense, while Stafford is passing 5000+ yds.
Point blank: The defense really didn’t show up for the game that decided what team they’d face in the playoffs or the first playoff game of their careers here- and Detroit’s first since 1999.
I don’t think Cunningham coached his best game, neither did Schwartz. Playcalling can always be improved. But it’s incumbent upon the players to get something done out there. I was fucking shocked, honestly. Back to back bullshit.
I thought Detroit had a defense to hang our hat on, but if they can’t play smart and play hard in the two most pivotal games of the entire season- maybe I was wrong.
I’m by no means losing my shit or anything. I know better. But I’m definitely skeptical about shit now. We need some new faces on Defense in this town.
That goddamn Okra and beans got you Oprah in jeans. Seems to me a little lean cuisine, wouldn't hurt much- Agh don't touch! -Obie Trice
I still think we had a punchers chance against NO
problem is our chin got obliterated because the Lions got out coachedand outplayed in the second half. I’ve had my issues with some of the play calling in all three phaes but in the end I’m pretty certain that it was coaching as much as it was poor tackling, not coming up with picks and shitty refs. Tough loss to take into the off season but it is clear that our defense is not where we need it to be if we want to win the big one.
by HonoluluBlues on Jan 9, 2012 3:19 AM EST up reply actions
out coached
yup
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"You can get a win with undisciplined jack asses, you create a winning team with discipline and poise." by Leonuro
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GROW THE F UP
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"Some people mistake the way I talk for the way I am thinking."
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We went from around 18-19 ppg in scoring defense in the first 8 games to over 30 ppg in the last 8
by scoring defense, I mean how much we allowed other teams to score against us
Ndamukong Suh - Bringing 50's football back to Motown!
It was a pretty spectacular fall, and those are deplorable stats.
and like I said- you beat GB you get Giants/Cowboys, not Drew Brees and Co.
then when you have that bad game, you go out there and play hard, play smart. First playoff game for this fanbase since ’99- you gotta play with everything you got.
I’m not saying they didn’t bring it in the 1st half, they did. I was just surprised at the 2nd half collapse.
It’s gonna be an interesting offseason.
That goddamn Okra and beans got you Oprah in jeans. Seems to me a little lean cuisine, wouldn't hurt much- Agh don't touch! -Obie Trice
I'm looking for some real numbers regarding wide 9
I keep hearing a lot of people blaming the scheme of wide 9 on failures of the team. The thing is how often did they really line up in the wide 9 formation. My eyeball hazy memory of it says it was less than 50% of the snaps lines up that way.
So does anyone have any real numbers on how often they lined up in the wide 9 in the NO game?
Individuals should protect themselves. Governments can't protect individuals from themselves, it's just impossible, otherwise they become a tyranical state. -Ron Paul
They used it a lot more arlier in the season until it started to backfire.
Then they started pulling in the defensive ends more later in the season. I think the dislike of the wide nine is really a misconception to some extent, because we did get more pressure on the passer when we used it, but we also gave up more yards to the running game. Later when we stopped using it as much we cut down on the really big running plays, but stopped tackling. It is a difficult analysis without going back over every game and taking a good look.
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It's tough
I think part of the things going on this year were brought on by the lockout and the shortened offseason. It doesn’t excuse things, but I think some decisions on schemes and such were impacted to try to simplify things. Last year there seemed to be more stunting and different looks last year. This year they were – as mentioned – very predictable.
Obviously I’m just speculating the lockout had something to do with that, but it does make sense that they wouldn’t try to put in too many things with bringing in a few new guys. Plus they may have overestimated how much the new guys would compensate for things.
All that said I’m still unsure whether Gunny should be given a full offseason to integrate new players and expand the schemes or bring in new blood to do the same thing. Of course the worry there is that it won’t work, but then you have the worry of them running Gunny’s system again and that not working.
the lions will most licke ly chanage up thier game plan maybee they will use less wide 9 and play more with de next to dt next year let not for get they made the playoff this year and had great year as ateam but nfl does chanage and so will the lions defensive sytem you mayse alot more more defensive package next year when they have a full year to do so they also will most lickely upgrade the ss spot and add anew cb or to in fa next yearfor now the lions our team fa will want to come to .
I'm excited
now the lions our team fa will want to come to .
KVB & Burleson started it, now that Detroit obviously has a franchise Quarterback and more direction than they ever have had, I think pulling quality talent via Free Agency is going to be easier than the past. I’m excited.
That goddamn Okra and beans got you Oprah in jeans. Seems to me a little lean cuisine, wouldn't hurt much- Agh don't touch! -Obie Trice
I agree
We can actually start to play players their true value instead of inflated value.
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"You can get a win with undisciplined jack asses, you create a winning team with discipline and poise." by Leonuro
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
GROW THE F UP
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"Some people mistake the way I talk for the way I am thinking."
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I don't recall all of this secondary concern during the season.
I ragged hard about the linebackers, and the we had oline discussions, but am I seeing some rearview quarterbacking here Joshun with the back 4 at least? Actually I recall you praising the linebackers and what a fabulous upgrade they are over seasons past.
Is your head as big as your Mama's ass?
I like the LBs
I think they are being asked to do too much right along with the D line.
One could say they are not good enough to play in our scheme but there is loads of talent in the front 7. That would be unfair.
The back 4, they are all castoffs from other teams or mid to late picks and I am tired of it. We need to dedicate some real resources to our back four.
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"You can get a win with undisciplined jack asses, you create a winning team with discipline and poise." by Leonuro
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GROW THE F UP
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"Some people mistake the way I talk for the way I am thinking."
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Of course, we know that. No one expected the playoffs or viewed the playoffs as a bonus this season, so to me they've overachieved.
I just think you’ve found a new avenue to attack Schwartz, and your using these last two games to do it, which to me is nothing more then hind site nitpicking because we knew that D needed more upgrading.
The last time we got into a bitch fest was over team discipline and he got that under control, so now it’s just something else and your using scheme, and personnel, and putting out old D numbers on various threads to renew your attack on Schwartz, and the issues your using are all in hind site which I find to be a joke.
Is your head as big as your Mama's ass?
Ummm, I am a fan
and I am talking about games that happened in the past. Like last week when a back up QB went all pro on our inept asses. Then this week when an all pro set a NFL playoff record on our inept asses. So, yeah. It is in hindsight.
And yes, I am attacking Schwartz. For the same reasons I have in the past. He is an average coach and it bleeds out in this team. He takes far too long to correct obvious problems while making moronic excuses for them expecting idiot fans to eat it up. Huge surprise we just stuck with the status quo defense even after watching it get lit up the week before by a GOD DAMN BACK UP QB.
He coaches scared, he system is conservative and passive and he takes an eternity to implement changes that everyone in the football world knew needed to be made weeks ago.
He has 11 years of HC and DC experience and in all that time, he has 2 years of top 10 defense and he is supposed to be some kind of defensive genius? Give me a break. We are seeing exactly what he is good at. Being average.
I am just happy he keeps his fingers out of the offense or we would be dead in the water.
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"You can get a win with undisciplined jack asses, you create a winning team with discipline and poise." by Leonuro
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GROW THE F UP
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"Some people mistake the way I talk for the way I am thinking."
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Actually I don't recall any talk at all about getting rid of Gunther.
I think you just pulled a new topic to rag about out of your ass and now your going to beat this one to shit.
Is your head as big as your Mama's ass?
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