What we need to do in the off season

by MisterEK on Jan 8, 2012 12:23 PM EST

I been listening to the talking heads on the radio the past few months about these 6-4 TEs and WRs that are just running wild on defenses. After seeing us having to play a 5-10 guy on New Orleans players and seeing what Nelson did to us the week before I think its time our team take a look at the standard practice of small but speedy guys for DBs.

Here is a list of our current players for our secodary

Player	Pos	Ht	Wt	Age	Exp
Berry, Aaron	LCB	5-11	180	23	2
Carey, Don	RCB	5-11	192	24	3
Coleman, Erik	S	5-10	207	29	8
Delmas, Louis	FS	5-11	202	24	3
Harris, Chris	SS	6-0	211	29	7
Houston, Chris	LCB	5-11	178	27	5
McDonald, Brandon	RCB	5-10	185	26	5
Silva, Ricardo	SS	6-3	225	23	R
Smith, Alphonso	LCB	5-9	190	26	3
Spievey, Amari	SS	5-11	195	23	2
Wendling, John	SPTM/FS	6-1	222	28	5
Wright, Eric	RCB	5-10	190	26	5

Now from this list only two players for the DBs fits what we need to do. Ricardo Silva and John Wendling are the only ones that are 6-2 220. I am not even going to look at speed and coverage skills at this point. The simple thing is look at our team we have 5 players that are above 6-4 in height.

Lets go down the list of playoff teams and the numbers of big WRs/TEs over 6-2 with the 6-3 in parenthesis.

Atlanta - 5 (2 are 6-3) - 3 are TE's
New Orleans - 6 (2 are 6-3) - 4 are TE's
Green Bay - 5 (2 are 6-3) - 4 are TE's
San Francisco - 3 (1 is 6-3) - all are TE's
New York G-men - 5 (1 is 6-3) - 3 are TE's
Denver - 6 (2 are 6-3) - 4 are TE's
Baltimore - 2 both are TE's
Houston - 7 (6 are 6-3) - 3 are TE's
Cincinnati - 6 (2 are 6-3) - 4 are TE's
New England - 1 is a TE
Pittsburgh - 2 both are TE's

Now considering most teams will not be putting all of their big guys out there at once we still need to consider how many we will need. Personally I like the idea of running a 4-2-2-3. That would be our usual 4 DL, a Will LB and a Mike LB with a SAM linebacker who is that smaller 6-2 220 that will line up on the TE and cover him. I would then replace one safety with another guy who is 6-2 220 that can line up on any tall WR that comes out. If and when they bring out 3 guys that size then you send out a third guy depending on whether he is a TE or WR. If a TE then you go another SAM if it is WR then its a another Safety.

Here is the thing though. With 25 players on defense that means 4 will have to be our big guys. So with 8 guys on DL, and roughly 6 of the smaller 5-10 180 CBs that means we will limited to just 7 players left for the other safety spot and the Linebackers. Personally I think we get away with just two more safeties, and 5 LBs.

The players I would select in this option are for the Defensive Line, Suh, Williams, Fairley, Hill, Avril (if we can resign him), Jackson, Vanden Bosch, and Young. For Cornerbacks I would keep Wright, Houston, McDonald, Berry, and two new guys. For Safety its only Delmas and Spievey I will keep. Then for Linebackers I like Durant, Tulloch, Levy, Carpenter, and Palmer. I would bring in Houge and Silva for that SAM role to see if either can make it. The key thing with the SAM role is not only do they have to have the right size but they also need speed, coverage skills (1-1) and the ability to play special teams because at that size they would be a perfect player for the gunner position and inside protector.

Needless to say lets see what options are out there to look at for next year.

Cletis Gordon - Carolina, Craig Steltz - Chicago, Alan Ball - Dallas (not really), Jason Allen - Houston, Jon McGraw - Kansas City, Jovan Belcher (LB) - Kansas City, Kenny Onatolu (LB) - Minnesota (restricted), Antwaun Molden - New England, James Ihedigbo - New England, Jonathan Goff (LB) - New York G-men, Brodney Pool - New York Jetties, Dashon Goldson - San Francisco, Sean Jones - Tampa Bay, Geno Hayes (LB) - Tampa Bay, Patrick Bailey - Tennessee.

That is it for free agents that fit the 6-1 to 6-3 200 to 235 range. There is a few they might be a little taller and bigger but thats it.

For draft picks let see what we can find.

Mark Barron - Alabama, Harrison Smith - Notre Dame, Sean Cattouse - California, Sean Richardson - Vanderbilt, Robert Lester - Alabama, George Iloka - Boise State, Tysyn Hartman - Kansas State, Jerrell Young - South Florida, Damien Jackson - Mississippi, Christian Thompson - South Carolina State, Trumaine Johnson - Montana

Linebackers are the following: Zach Brown - North Carolina, Lavonte David - Nebraska, ~~Travis Lewis - Oklahoma~~, Terrell Manning - North Carolina State, Tyler Nielsen - Iowa, Josh Kaddu - Oregon, Tank Carder - TCU, ~~Tahir Whitehead - Temple~~, Demario Davis - Arkansas State

The two names with strikethrough are ones that have 40 times above 4.7 which to me is a little too slow for this position. So we have some options right now for player to match up against there players.

BTW here is a list of teams we play next year what they will bring to bear against us.

Chicago - 6 (1 is 6-3) - 5 are TE's
Minnesota - 7 (3 are 6-3) - 5 are TE's
Arizona - 8 (3 are 6-3) - 6 are TE's
Seattle - 9 (2 are 6-3) - 5 are TE's
St. Louis - 7 (2 are 6-3) - 6 are TE's
Philadelphia - 4 (2 are 6-3) - 3 are TE's
Tennessee - 6 (4 are 6-3) - 4 are TE's
Indianapolis - 5 (2 are 6-3) - all are TE's
Jacksonville - 6 (1 is 6-3) - 4 are TE's

After looking over the lists I think we could be facing 2 TEs and 1 WR at those heights per game. Some teams less and others more so. The key thing is just getting a look at some of these players and finding some taller CBs as well. 5-11 and 5-10 will not do when you are going against guys 4 to 8 inches taller than you. I am not as concerned with the weight given up but the height as it provides a benefit of blocking the QB from seeing an opening.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Pride of Detroit or its writers. FanPosts are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable fans.

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personally

I think it is very simple if we look at the trends. 18 of the top 20 safeties and 7 of the top 20 cornerbacks coming out in this draft are over 6’ tall. our defensive backfield is from the 1980’s. Delmas plays bigger than he is. everyone else is subject to being replaced in my opinion. If we just build a modern secondary through the draft we will improve greatly.

by Lionsickness on Jan 8, 2012 12:48 PM EST reply actions

somewhat

Here is the thing, from my list you see a lot of TE’s that are bigger but outside of that its one or two WRs that are the big boys. I think we need to have that 5-10 speedster but we also need to have that bigger 6-2 220 SAM as well to cover those bigger WRs and TEs. Think about this only Seattle and Houston have 3 or WRs over 6-2.

by MisterEK on Jan 8, 2012 12:53 PM EST up reply actions

It's just math to me

12 of the top 20 receivers coming out are over 6’2". that is why the college db’s are getting bigger. At least 10 of the top 20 safeties coming out fit the physical description of your sam. But they won’t be playing linebacker, they will be playing safety because linebackers are getting bigger also. All of our linebackers are over 235 and they still get knocked over at times. I can remember when all of our linebackers were under 235. The game changes and bigger, faster, better is the way.

by Lionsickness on Jan 8, 2012 3:55 PM EST up reply actions

6' guys

Unfortunately, all this would do is have taller dudes tackling post-catch 10 yrds downfield in the holes of our zone coverage.

by Incantrix on Jan 8, 2012 2:21 PM EST up reply actions

well

if that happens without a shoulder dislocation (and we actually get the guy down) it would be an improvement. In the last two years we have had no less than 5 db shoulder dislocations because they are not big enough to handle the job. Houston was the latest casualty last night. Shoulder dislocated in the first half, didn’t tackle anyone the rest of the game!

by Lionsickness on Jan 8, 2012 4:00 PM EST up reply actions

Secondary

Delmas, Speviey, and Houston are the only locks to be back. Wright will be back if he doesn’t demand too much money. Phonz is expendable and so is Berry although I expect him to be back.

Datsyukian Deke, Detroit Red Wings Blog
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by Detroitnr1 on Jan 8, 2012 1:30 PM EST reply actions

We need a defensive evolution to fit todays NBAFL

1) The extinction of the FB and the emergence of the TE is making the old school MLB obsolete.We move Silva or Wendling to the MLB spot to matchup with the modern TE and limit the open area in the middle with the cover 2 zone.

2) We improve stopping the run by handing Tulloch and Avril their walking papers and use that cap money to sign hard hitting LaRon Landry to play next to Delmas (Spievey will never be more than a quality depth guy)

3) We draft a tall CB early bring back Wright and add a veteran press cover corner like Trufant for added depth.

Bottom line we need to revolutionize the defense to fit the agenda of the modern NBAFL

Tonight I'm gonna party like it's 1999
(artist formerly known as prince)

by Wayne Fontes on Jan 8, 2012 1:42 PM EST reply actions

Defense

1. There are plenty of MLB’s who make their defenses churn, we can gaze right across the lake at the Bears and see Urlacher.

2. Tulloch is a great MLB and would be a beast in a good scheme. Not one where he has to chase everything to the corners on every play. Avril can go, he is horrid in the run game. Spievey, like our entire secondary suffers from the constant Zone we run and the zero pressure on QBs.

3. We don’t play press coverage, we have speed at CB, but we run Zone because we exist in the Schwartz area of conservatism. (BTW Fontes liked the “bend-but-don’t-break” Tampa 2, which broke constantly)

by Incantrix on Jan 8, 2012 2:18 PM EST up reply actions

You guys seem to forget we were third in the NFL

In third down Defense. We don’t need an entire overhaul to the scheme and everything just a few new players and tweaks.

We are taught from an early age how to deal with failure not success. (If at first you don't succeed try try again, if at first you succeed then what....) -Charlie Sheen

I come ready, when I came out the womb I was ready, tell them mama that's why you had me, you knew I was ready. -Moss

Dominating your opposition physically is great and all, but confounding them mentally is sooo much more fun.

2-15-DEN 44(14:36) (Shotgun) K.Moreno up the middle to DEN 47 for 3 yards (N.Suh). FUMBLES (N.Suh), RECOVERED by DET-N.Suh at DEN 47. N.Suh to DEN 47 for no gain (K.Moreno). FUMBLES (K.Moreno), recovered by DET-C.Houston at DEN 47. C.Houston to DEN 47 for no gain (O.Franklin). Denver challenged the fumble ruling, and the play was REVERSED. (Shotgun) K.Moreno up the middle to DEN 49 for 5 yards (S.Tulloch).

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by Redwolf333 on Jan 8, 2012 2:21 PM EST up reply actions

I don't know. I have mixed feelings

I’m upset that the season is over for the Lions and in the way it went down. But on the other hand I am so excited for the season they gave us. We were in every game and i believed we had a team capable of winning every week. From where we were 3 yrs ago, its nice to be having the troubles we have now in finding just a few more pieces to fit the puzzle and make it complete.
I’ve read all the posts here and see how upset everyone is and also see all the changes everyone has in mind. IMO, on the coaches; Keep em, they brought us this far and i don’t see why they can’t get us the rest of the way. The players; if they can’t wrap up and tackle by now, replace em. They learn the fundamentals early on in their career, shouldn’t have to learn them now at this level. Rookies and 1st year players always have problems with the speed at this level. Give em tme. The refs; make them full time employees. The NFL can afford it and it will make them more consistent and efficient on their calls. Also, make them more responsible for incorrect calls, but imo replay should fix that.
Just my 2 cents and thanks to the Lions for a great season and something to look forward to next year. Would also like to thank all the POD for a great blog.

by Honalulublue on Jan 8, 2012 3:08 PM EST reply actions

I'd like to point out a couple things.......

That was some good research, but there’s couple things that concern me……..

1. Where’s the list of CB’s around the league and their height?
True, there are a few taller CB’s being drafted these days, but not many. You might find a couple guys who are 6-0, 6-1 with great man coverage skills go in the first round, but after that, teams favor smaller guys who can cover over bigger guys who can’t. To be a CB in this league, you have to be able to cover. It’s a non-negotiable minimum requirement. You’re not going to see any teams with a whole bunch of 6-2, 6-3, 6-4 CB’s. There’s a reason for that.

2. Except for Stephen Tulluch (who’s on a 1-year deal), the other Lions LB’s (including Hogue) are fast, athletic, and cover pretty well.

3. Changing to a 6-2, 220 Lb LB changes the defense.
Remember Jordan Dizon? Remember the Tampa 2? This is not that defense……thankfully. More importantly, that’s a piece that would be incompatible with this defense. You saw how the Saints’ RB’s ran over and through us? Putting a 220 Lb at MLB (Mike) or LOLB (Sam) would just make the run defense worse. For passing downs, we’d probable be in a nickel or a dime defense anyways. And if the TE goes in motion with a smaller SAM on the field, you have to flip the defense, which Coach Schwartz hates to do. More on that below.

4. Changing to a 6-2, 220 Lb Safety changes the defense.
Schwartz believes in having both Safeties in the 195-210 Lb range who can cover and hit, like Louis Delmas. He’s said so in multiple interviews. 220 Lb Safeties can’t cover well enough. 220 Lb Strong Safeties are the past, not the future. More importantly, they don’t fit Schwartz’s defense. Getting bigger, slower, less athletic Safeties with less coverage skills will only make our pass defense worse.

5. Using 6-2, 220 SAM LB’s or 6-2, 220 Strong Safeties destroys the philosophy of Schwartz’s defense, which is to have a symmetrical defense of athletic guys who can hit and cover.
Schwartz doesn’t refer to them as SAM or Will LB’s, or Strong Safeties and Weak Safeties. Schwartz calls them LOLB, ROLB, LS, and RS…..with good reason. Schwartz believes in having symmetrical players who can cover and tackle on both halves of the field equally. In multiple interviews, Schwartz has commented on how with a traditional defense with a SAM and a SS, if a team sends a TE in motion, suddenly you have to flip a couple of defensive guys pre-snap. Teams can audible you out of what you want to do defensively, create confusion, and potentially create mismatches, just from sending a single TE in motion. Schwartz’s defense has guys on both sides of the field who can handle whatever comes at it without worrying about mismatches.

In summary………
The scheme is not flawed. We just need a few more better players, especially in the secondary. An elite CB or 2 (6-0 tall, sure, but be ready to draft one in the 1st Round to get one over 6 feet with elite coverage skills). Another Delmas? Perhaps. Amari Spievey is still learning the Safety position after playing CB at Iowa, and he’s getting better. If that’s not good enough, then ok, draft an elite Safety. A faster MLB than Tulloch? Perhaps. Levy could switch back to the middle, but we’d still need a 3rd big, fast LB, 235 Lb+ with speed. We have one in Doug Hogue already, but if he’s not good enough, we could try to draft a better one, sure.

IMO (and Schwartz’s) we just need to get better players who can make those plays. We put our DB’s in position to make some plays, even against a great QB in Drew Brees, but the ball went through their hands. A smaller LB or a slower Safety won’t change that.

by GRLion on Jan 8, 2012 4:52 PM EST reply actions

Old school thinking

first off, the corners we have now do not have elite coverage skills, and they are small. second off there are teams with multiple corners over 6 feet. New York, Green Bay and Seattle come to mind, I’m sure there are others. The old school thought that small db’s are better is going by the way-side and I hope our organization doesn’t wait to long to catch up. All of the elite corners that are active and have had long careers are over 6 feet because they can take the pounding. Bailey, Asomugha, Woodson. If I have to settle for corners that are not elite, they better be big enough to tackle and stay healthy.

by Lionsickness on Jan 8, 2012 8:17 PM EST up reply actions

furthermore

if we are going to invest the resources (high dp & $) in an elite corner. I would demand even further that he be big enough to last.

by Lionsickness on Jan 8, 2012 8:20 PM EST up reply actions

Ironic

1. Having big, slow 220 Lb Strong Safeties and undersized 220 Lb LB’s on one side of the defense actually is Old School thinking.

2. Yes, our corners don’t have elite cover skills, so like I said, we can get better players. If you want elite corners over 6 feet tall, be prepared to pay for them with 1st round picks. I’m not saying we shouldn’t do it, but be aware of the price and be prepared to pay it.

3. Yes, some teams have multiple corners over 6 feet tall. But how many are elite corners? Tall corners who cant cover aren’t any better than short corners that can’t cover.

4. Charles Woodson (4), Champ Bailey (7), and Nnamdi Asomugha (31) were all 1st round picks, 2 of them very high 1st round picks. Do we have a top 7 pick? No. Are we prepared to trade up for one? I think not. We could use our (late) 1st round pick on a 6-foot elite corner (if there’s one out there), and MAYBE get someone of Asomugha’s quality, if we’re lucky. But be aware of the price and be willing to pay it. It’s going to take a 1st round pick. These kind of guys don’t come cheap, and they don’t sell them by the truckload. For the record, I support taking an elite cover corner with our 1st round pick if he’s one of the best players available and we’re not reaching for lesser value with a non-elite CB.

Rest assured, Schwartz won’t change his entire defensive philosophy every time we lose a game and people panic. Those were the Lions of the past. Schwartz and Mayhew are sticking to their guns, as they have so far, in making picks and installing schemes that may not have been popular with the fans at the time, but which have proven their worth. Schwartz and Mayhew have done better than Marinelli and Millen. There’s a reasons for that. I understand what they’re trying to do, and I trust them.

by GRLion on Jan 9, 2012 8:54 PM EST up reply actions

Good post

I should mention that I support our 4-3 defense I just do not see a need for it when you have a single back in the backfield. I think it works in two back offense quite well but the NFL is turning away from a FB in the backfield and the thought process of defense need to adapt to the changes. Offenses attack, defenses defend the attack so you can not sit there think the offense will change their offense just to defend the defense. It will not occur as Brees just showed us. A quick release QB nullifies any pass rush you can bring and if you can beat the best on their turf then you are not good enough for the Superbowl IMHO.

What I thinking is changing the DB backfeild for the defense. Our speedy and good coverage corners work and will continue to do so in the future. What we need to do is go to a true one deep free safety who can still lay the smack down but still be a burner. That is where Spievey and Delmas come in. Both can run that spot effectively and can trade on and off on series IMHO, to keep them fresher. I would then have an old school SS or what I am calling a SAM to line up and attack the TEs. When offense go to 3 wide and they still have a big 6-3 or taller WR out there you put in another one of the SAMs. If they go to a single back with 2 TEs, out goes one LB and in goes another SAM. The key thing is matching up the defense to what the offense is doing. Its not a change in the how the defense is run as I think it is more along the lines of matching up the defense to what the offenses are doing.

We are still going to play and still rush 4 DL and have the LBs play zone on runs and passes but this given the defense a better chance at covering those big TEs and WRs.

by MisterEK on Jan 10, 2012 1:17 PM EST up reply actions

What Lionsickness said and more

As for your comments about what Swartz says that is fine and dandy. If you are not willing to change your defense then he can hit the door as far as I am concerned. Its a matter of getting the right players. What my thoughts are that we only need two LBs IMHO. A right LB and a Left LB. Put them in B gap and let them watch the QB and RB. Most teams are just running a single back offense most of the time any ways. What I would then do is put a deep safety about 15 yards off the ball to keep everything in front of him. More than likely you will want Delmas with Spievey as backup and even rotate them at times. They are good size for that role.

As for the Corners I like the smaller faster guys to fill the RCB and the LCB role. That will work in the league as you need them to cover the speedsters that most teams has. As you can see from my list above most teams have the big guys as TEs not WRs. Now that leaves 2 players left after the 4 Defensive Linemen. Those 2 players are what I call the SAMs. I do not have a good name for them if you can think of something else let me know. What we need are 6-2 220 pound guys to cover the TEs and bigger WRs. It may occur that if they line up with a big WR on one side and 2 smalls on the other you can just put the other CB on the other side to cover the slot guy.

What you are basically doing is always being in a nickel package or a run stopping defense. That is what having a bigger Safety or small LB will do for us. Its the only way I can figure out how to stop these new offenses that are using Big TEs and Big WRs. I love X’s and O’s so for me finding a way to stop opposing offenses or exploiting opposing defenses is always fun for me to look at.

What you will end up seeing is this diagram.

by MisterEK on Jan 9, 2012 2:54 AM EST up reply actions

It all starts up front

I agree a personnel upgraded in the backfield is warranted. I will say that a lack of consistent pressure up the middle has to be the biggest reason our pass defense is so horrid. QBs have been able to avoid with wide 9 ends, step up comfortably and deliver the ball. We’re not getting the consistent push from our DT’s. Suh, Williams, Nick and Hill need to hit the film room, learn from their mistakes and add some new tools to their bags to get back to consistent, in your face qb pressure. Do that and we’re in much better shape v the pass next year.

by Goldmember2 on Jan 8, 2012 11:41 PM EST reply actions

Yep

gotta say Suh and the DT’s did not give us the pressure and disruption that we needed in the two most critical games of the last decade for us. Not sure if Suh got caught up in all the media negativity but plainly put he did not come up big for us when we needed him the most. Same can be said for the rest of the D I suppose. KVB and Avril? I may be ready for Jackson and Young to step in. Trade Levy and Alphonso as I am now positive they have hit their ceiling, low as it is. Get us a tackling LB who is not Bobby Carpenter and a starting S or CB. Our safeties are a liability and should be deemed replaceable imo,but I dont know who would be the upgrade for Delmas at this point though. If at most find someone to replace Spievey and Levy and get us a CB1.

by HonoluluBlues on Jan 9, 2012 3:40 AM EST up reply actions

the lions dt our great players and you have rembear they our young players and suh had off year compare to 1srt year in the nfl but with tranig camp nextyear and youadd a full year for thier 1pick in last year draft in farerly in their defensive line sytem you will not have any proleam geting pressure on the qcb .as for big cbs yes iwould licke the lions to add afew but they must if the defensive sytem we run if not then they will just bench players and a wasted draft pick . as for the lions coach and staff they just won ten games this year and made the play offs this year and now beacuse you think he should draft big cbs and ss you want to get rid of him our you nuts .yes players our geting big at wr and te spots but so our cbs in the collage game in the next few year you will sea lot more players who our ready to play in the nfl who our big cbs coming out of collage .but if you lock at the draft poll right now for collage cb and ss /fs // you will find that mos t our under 6ft tall who can play in the nfl right way and few who our big play in a styem that help them out .

by kwfords on Jan 9, 2012 1:04 PM EST reply actions

Heres my thought process

I am still thinking the 5-10/5-11 CBs work as you still need that smaller speedy guy who can cover the 6-1 and below WRs. What I also see a need for is a 6-2/6-3 bigger CB/SS/LB that can cover that big WR a lot of teams has along with their TEs. So it would not be your typical SS as you require them to play man up but also would not be LB as they would not be your typical 6-4 250 pounder but rather a smaller 230 pound guy. That is why I coined it a 4-2-2-3 defense.

by MisterEK on Jan 9, 2012 2:00 PM EST up reply actions