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Good article.

While I still think Avril is a tad overrated, he’s not selfish for wanting 10+ mil a year. I hope he stays, but not for that money.

Aaron Berry > Eric Berry

When anyone says, "I’ll kick your ass" its implied that they’ll be using Hanson’s leg. -Leonuro

I have a twitter: Follow Me

by Bighaircut on Feb 20, 2012 1:35 PM EST reply actions  

I dont get the overrated label

I mean what constitutes overrated? 11 sacks, 6 forced fumbles, 2 DTDs, you can’t just ignore that, no matter which defensive line you are playing on. I don’t hear the same arguments about Terrell Suggs, who is quintessentially labelled as a star yet he has only had four double digit sack seasons out of his nine in the league. I don’t hear the same arguments made about any of the Giants defensive linemen or the OLBs in Pittsburgh, yet they too are one dimensional in many ways and enjoy the same advantages as Avril did here. Talent makes talent better. How many times in 2010 did we see a quarterback step up to avoid Cliff Avril only to be sacked by Ndamukong Suh. No one’s giving Cliff credit for making Suh better, yet everyone is making the flipside of the argument quite often.

Just because you have talent on the bench in Lawrence Jackson and Willie Young doesn’t make Cliff Avril any less talented or any more overrated. Of course he most likely won’t repeat the same numbers elsewhere where there isn’t as much talent around him, but that would be the case with Jason Pierre Paul or Jared Allen or any other “star” defensive end. How many exactly play on a defensive line that isn’t either catered for a DE to get sacks (ie wide 9 or 3-4 or whatever the Colts play) or don’t have a ton of talent on the line? Seventeen players had double digit sacks last year, and of the seventeen only Chris Clemons of Seahawks don’t fit the bill.

Well, that was my Cliff Avril rant…

House of Spears | My Detroit Lions/NFL Blog

by Latif Masud on Feb 20, 2012 1:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Latif ..

I agree that he is talented and sometimes, Suh might benefit from his play. But look at the overall picture. Suh is rated better in every way (sports science comes to mind). Also, even though Suh’s production decreased and he didn’t make the PB, he was chosen to the All pro team voted by the team executives in the league. That should tell you something, how highly he was thought of this year too. These guys are in the business of grading talent.

Cliff has talent and plays great. But to be part of this D-line, we cannot pay every guy THAT well. He deserves a chance to maximize his pay, but I don’t think we as a team should pay him that much. And the fact remains his performance will suffer if he isn’t next to DT’s like ours. SO in that situation, his “worth” will not be 12 Million.

just my opinion …

by Libran on Feb 20, 2012 2:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree there

and I’ve said that a few times on here. The point I was making is simply that just because WE can’t afford him doesn’t mean he is overrated. He is worth 10 to 12 mil to the right team.

House of Spears | My Detroit Lions/NFL Blog

by Latif Masud on Feb 20, 2012 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Overrated is perspective based.

I think Cliff is overrated, you might not.

It's turkey, Lions and Macy's. Any other combination is just ludicrous.

"I'm not puting that quote on my sig" -Bighaircut, circa 2012

"Ambition is a poor excuse for not having sense enough to be lazy." - Charlie McCarthy

by Leonuro on Feb 22, 2012 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I get what you're saying

My only argument was that I don’t think he warrants 11-12 mil a year. That’s the “overrated” part of my statement.

Aaron Berry > Eric Berry

When anyone says, "I’ll kick your ass" its implied that they’ll be using Hanson’s leg. -Leonuro

I have a twitter: Follow Me

by Bighaircut on Feb 20, 2012 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I wouldn't use the term "Overrated" specifically

But there is a BIG danger in rewarding a player after one outstanding season. Cliff’s been solid for a number of years, but last year was his first outstanding season.

You just don’t want to get into a Cory Readding situation where you pay a guy a ton of money over a lot of years for one outstanding season.

If I’m Mayhew and I can afford it based on my other plans, I seriously consider franchising Cliff for one more year. If he does it again, then yeah, give him the big deal or let him walk. If he goes back to “solid”, I’m sure glad I didn’t pay him through the nose.

by Big Z in Orlando on Feb 20, 2012 5:57 PM EST up reply actions  

There is no risk in the NFL for investing in a young player that had a breakout year

This isn’t the NBA. Player doesn’t perform up to standards, you can simply cut him and go your way as long as you didn’t hand him a massive amount of guaranteed money

House of Spears | My Detroit Lions/NFL Blog

by Latif Masud on Feb 20, 2012 6:13 PM EST up reply actions  

as long as you didn’t hand him a massive amount of guaranteed money

But that’s exactly what all the players want nowadays. For exactly the reason to be compensated if they get cut. No risk? Crap.

It's turkey, Lions and Macy's. Any other combination is just ludicrous.

"I'm not puting that quote on my sig" -Bighaircut, circa 2012

"Ambition is a poor excuse for not having sense enough to be lazy." - Charlie McCarthy

by Leonuro on Feb 22, 2012 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Thats why the words Incentive Based are very important

"People ask is winning really the only thing? My answer to them is my answer to you. Ask Yourself The Damn Question! Is winning the only thing that matters to you? Is it what you want ? Do you want to be remembered as a winner...Or something else? ~ (Dan Lauria as Vince Lombardi)

PCP 4 LIFE

by The Profiler on Feb 21, 2012 12:13 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree

People that have been calling him selfish are being dramatic. While I hope we find a way to keep him around and may not be able to, his take on the hometown discount is 100% right. A team will never keep a player around for sentimental reasons and he’s not wrong to want the long-term security that he’s earned by being a progressively improving player that has been a great team guy. Actually, we should be happy that he so badly wants it to work out so that he stays in Detroit. I may be a little biased because he’s been one of my favorite players since he came here, but I think he is a valuable asset. Realistically, it may not be in the cards to keep him, and that bums me out, but if he goes I wish him the best of luck. Also, if he does, I think LoJack and Willie will provide some depth and we can pick up a developmental player circa 3rd round cough Tyrone Crawford! cough to be mentored by KVB in what could be his last year.

by trigga mike! on Feb 20, 2012 1:55 PM EST reply actions  

and management isn't stingy

It’s easy to see just one side but I see both. We can’t over pay him and he doesn’t want to be franchised he wants security. Hoping something gets worked out in negotiations.

Staffcity

by The.Lions on Feb 20, 2012 1:57 PM EST reply actions  

Press on Avril

We will be just fine without you.

In fact, we will be better without you. We will have that money to pay other highly productive players. Instead of cutting several highly productive players just so you can get overpaid. No thanks.

Your new team is going to find out what we all know already. You are as much a product of our system and the talent around you than anything else. Let them have your albatross of a contract hanging over their neck, not ours.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-There are approximately 45 cats and dogs for every person born.
-Only 1 out of 10 dogs born ever get a home.
-Only 1 out of 12 cats born ever find a home.
-Approximately 800 dogs & cats are KILLED each HOUR in the United States, because there are not enough homes for them!

by joshsun on Feb 20, 2012 2:20 PM EST reply actions  

exactly

perhaps I’m missing a whole helluva lot of the magic the FO can do with numbers, but I just don’t see how they can afford Avril if he’s thinking 11+ a year avg. Who would the team have to part ways with to have him stay?

Individuals should protect themselves. Governments can't protect individuals from themselves, it's just impossible, otherwise they become a tyranical state. -Ron Paul

by Ee Oulo on Feb 21, 2012 1:42 AM EST up reply actions  

essentially everyone who is a FA right now

and then cut/renegotiate several other players.

Basically, gut the team.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-There are approximately 45 cats and dogs for every person born.
-Only 1 out of 10 dogs born ever get a home.
-Only 1 out of 12 cats born ever find a home.
-Approximately 800 dogs & cats are KILLED each HOUR in the United States, because there are not enough homes for them!

by joshsun on Feb 21, 2012 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I haven't read the article yet ... But

I don’t think he is selfish. The situation will take care of itself.He has the right to maximize his earnings, just like Lions(or any team) try to maximize their profit.

Since it was believed that we might not tag him, I thought he would be gone. I do believe he is overvalued considering who he played with. His play will suffer if he joins a Dline with below average D-Linemen.

I think the Lions are better served re-signing CJ and getting players who fill glaring needs than paying Avril 10-12 Mill. Too much money invested in D-line already.

I don’t blame Avril, I hope we tag him, trade him for 2012 picks. And use all our picks for a DE/LB/CB/OL .. That might make everyone happy and work out the best cap wise.

by Libran on Feb 20, 2012 2:51 PM EST reply actions  

If the rookie wage scale had been in place 5 years ago

Re-signing Avril would be no problem and everybody would be happy. I have a feeling similar negotiations are going to play out every year as long as the Lions have the big 3 of Stafford, Johnson, and Suh. We could very well be seeing the same thing with Delmas next year—young safety with great potential but is injury prone and wants more than we can afford to pay.

i don’t blame Cliff at all for getting paid, he deserves it and he’s earned it, but I don’t think he’s worth it for the Lions considering the scheme and other personnel they have, and I would be surprised to see them bring him back on a long term basis.

Formerly WestSideLionsFan. Fan of all Detroit sports teams.

by WalterM on Feb 20, 2012 3:37 PM EST reply actions  

Def seen this on twitter

Thanks for posting it Sean I really debated on weather or not to share this article in a fanpost. It’s buisness as usual in the NFL Don’t hate the player hate the game.

Also and intresting read I found
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/four-downs/2012/four-downs-nfc-north

"People ask is winning really the only thing? My answer to them is my answer to you. Ask Yourself The Damn Question! Is winning the only thing that matters to you? Is it what you want ? Do you want to be remembered as a winner...Or something else? ~ (Dan Lauria as Vince Lombardi)

PCP 4 LIFE

by The Profiler on Feb 20, 2012 5:02 PM EST reply actions  

i hate when any player holds out after being franchised!!!!!!!!

and yes it is whiny, crying and selfish!!!
The contract that the players and nfl both signed off on has articles of agreement that players may be franchised, so when players are franchised they should show up to work as agreed upon in the CBA. i believe that players need to get paid for their success as long as it falls within the standards set by the CBA i.e. salary caps etc., BUT a teams right to franchise a player is also included in the CBA and should be adhered to.

by chainsaw on Feb 20, 2012 8:31 PM EST reply actions  

and there you go

100% in agreement.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-There are approximately 45 cats and dogs for every person born.
-Only 1 out of 10 dogs born ever get a home.
-Only 1 out of 12 cats born ever find a home.
-Approximately 800 dogs & cats are KILLED each HOUR in the United States, because there are not enough homes for them!

by joshsun on Feb 20, 2012 9:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Holding out for a contract doesn't violate the CBA

It’s standard procedure that isn’t going to change anytime soon…

House of Spears | My Detroit Lions/NFL Blog

by Latif Masud on Feb 20, 2012 10:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Just because it happens does not make it right.

chainsaw’s statements are no less valid in my opinion.

The players agreed to a CBA that included the franchise tag. Holding out against the franchise tag that they already agreed to in the CBA is selfish, whiny and crying.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-There are approximately 45 cats and dogs for every person born.
-Only 1 out of 10 dogs born ever get a home.
-Only 1 out of 12 cats born ever find a home.
-Approximately 800 dogs & cats are KILLED each HOUR in the United States, because there are not enough homes for them!

by joshsun on Feb 20, 2012 10:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Didn't say his point wasn't valid

But there is absolutely nothing illegal about a hold out nor anything “whiny or selfish”. How is it selfish? Is he missing games? Is he costing his team wins? Nope. Some older players don’t report to camp simply because they need the extra time to recover, some skip camp just for the hell of it. Its skipping camp he is talking about not sitting out a season. I think people are automatically equating that to be the case.

He’s 26, which means this is his only chance in his NFL career to get a big time contract. I think him and his agent know pretty well that Cliff Avril is no Julius Peppers. There is no guarantee he will have another season in his lifetime like the one he had last year. From his standpoint, it makes perfect sense to do anything and everything to make sure he gets the contract.

House of Spears | My Detroit Lions/NFL Blog

by Latif Masud on Feb 20, 2012 10:57 PM EST up reply actions  

So should a player not have the right to retire if they're franchised?

Where does it end?

Holding out, they’re going to be losing a lot of money. It’s their decision.

"You've got to respect your opponent, no matter who it is. You respect him best by going out there and beating him up." - Calvin Johnson

by Mavyrk on Feb 20, 2012 10:59 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Great point

God forbid a player wants to make a decision about his career.

by JWurm on Feb 22, 2012 10:19 AM EST up reply actions  

God forbid we think that decision is stupid.

It's turkey, Lions and Macy's. Any other combination is just ludicrous.

"I'm not puting that quote on my sig" -Bighaircut, circa 2012

"Ambition is a poor excuse for not having sense enough to be lazy." - Charlie McCarthy

by Leonuro on Feb 22, 2012 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Are you kidding?

Sure a team has a right to franchise a player in the CBA. But the player has a right to not like that and holdout in the CBA.

I’m so tired of everyone that’s so quick to toss out player rights and then run around and parade the right of the franchise.

by JWurm on Feb 22, 2012 10:18 AM EST up reply actions  

Wait, what?
I’m so tired of everyone that’s so quick to toss out player rights and then run around and parade the right of the franchise.

Everyone….seriously? Were you around here during the lockout?

It's turkey, Lions and Macy's. Any other combination is just ludicrous.

"I'm not puting that quote on my sig" -Bighaircut, circa 2012

"Ambition is a poor excuse for not having sense enough to be lazy." - Charlie McCarthy

by Leonuro on Feb 22, 2012 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

I was

And it was overwhelmingly against the players.

by JWurm on Feb 22, 2012 3:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I definitely did not see it the same way as you.

I remain in disagreement, but I won’t carry on.

It's turkey, Lions and Macy's. Any other combination is just ludicrous.

"I'm not puting that quote on my sig" -Bighaircut, circa 2012

"Ambition is a poor excuse for not having sense enough to be lazy." - Charlie McCarthy

by Leonuro on Feb 22, 2012 5:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn't say it was illegal

i just think its a bitch call, players can still negotiate their deals while franchised and the club has a right under the current CBA to franchise a player. I also feel that it will help push him into a long term deal, franchised players receive the calculated salary that everyone knows by now but receive no bonuses.
So if he is upset about being franchised don’t stomp off in a fit and refuse to report, show your worth what your asking, show you deserve the long term lucrative deal. The franchise tag makes you one of the highest paid players at your position for 1 year and during any part of that tenure a contract can be negotiated between the player and the team.
No player is required to accept the tenure of a franchise tag BUT no play, no pay and the current team still owns your rights, and signing bonuses can obviously be lost.

by chainsaw on Feb 20, 2012 11:20 PM EST reply actions  

It's just that mentallity

It makes sense to a lot of blue collar guys to “prove their value”, but that’s not what its about. There are just so many factors involved in football, including the fact that Cliff Avril might not be what he looked like in Detroit, so the best way for him to get the money is to get a long term deal right now.

House of Spears | My Detroit Lions/NFL Blog

by Latif Masud on Feb 20, 2012 11:23 PM EST up reply actions  

There are just so many factors involved in football

Yeah, cause jobs and real life are pretty cut and dry. Just so there’s no confusion, that’s sarcasm bud. I can’t imagine a single thing in this universe where proving your value is “not what its about”. C’mon man.

It's turkey, Lions and Macy's. Any other combination is just ludicrous.

"I'm not puting that quote on my sig" -Bighaircut, circa 2012

"Ambition is a poor excuse for not having sense enough to be lazy." - Charlie McCarthy

by Leonuro on Feb 22, 2012 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

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